The Best Sword?

[Andy]

What is the best sword in your eyes? I am not specifically talking about only swords, this includes any weapon. Staff, chain, knife. If a jedi needed to carry something what should it be?

[RyuJin]

well from one point of view the ultimate weapon...greater then any bladed, or blunted instrument made by man or nature would have to be the mind...a well trained mind can solve any problem...

however if you mean a physical weapon, well that would depend on the particular person, some people are good with pole arms, some with swords, the best weapon would then be whatever feels best for your particular style...

i don't feel the need to carry a weapon since everything is a weapon, even a sheet of paper...my definition of a weapon is different from most. to me a weapon is anything that can be used to give you an advantage even a sheet of paper, crumple the sheet of paper up, throw it in their face, as theyre momentarily distracted make your move. a rolled up newspaper or magazine can be very effective as well...if you train your mind well then you will find that you are never truly unarmed, weapons are everywhere. you just have to remain calm and be aware of your environment.

if i were to actually carry a weapon then it would probably be the katana i was given by the man that trained me..

in the case of firearms it wouldn't make any difference to me since i'm a certified sharpshooter with both the rifle and pistol....gotta love the military gun quals...

[Andy]

yes, situation awareness is key. Lets remove that. You control the situation. Lets say this is for home/ land protection.

[Ro-Ha Til'leto]

That's a good question, and I agree with RyuJin that it probably depends on personal taste. I carry a multi-tool most days. I'm using a MasterForce brand now, but have carried Gerber and Schrade before.

I typically carry mine any time I leave the house, except when traveling to and from work (airport security issue). But, I do bring it in my checked in luggage. It has saved me from many headaches at work!

[Mindas Arran]

Currently, for home protection I'm relying on my AK-47. Cheap ammo, very reliable and sturdy, decent range and knockdown power, and good mag capacity. It's well rounded.

For melee weapons, I'm really in a machete mood lately. As far as bang for buck, you can't do better than a 20$ Cold Steel mfg. machete! :D

[RyuJin]

a machete...you're not a columbian are you?....j/k....bad movie reference...i used to own a bushmaster m16-a1 my dad left to me when he died...while the .223 ammo is relatively cheap i didn't have to buy any since he left me an ammo box with over 1000 rounds...its got pretty decent power though the smaller caliber means you have to place your shots more accurately...not a problem for me with straight sight...though my dad did add a high power scope that i dialed in for him....with that i could bullseye pennies from 80 yards...doesn't sound very far till you consider the size of a penny...the .223 round leaves a clean hole about the size of a pencil through the penny....in the navy i had a 98% accuracy rating from 200 yards with the m14, a much heavier rifle, and that was straight sight (no scope)....lately i've been eyeing a bushmaster pistol, which is basically the same thing as the rifle i had except the barrel has been shortened and the butt was replaced with a plain pistol grip...that way i can re-use my dad's scope, all my clips, and my ammo...then i just have to make a holster for it, using my leather working tools....it would still be considerably longer then a typical handgun...but shorter then a rifle....

[Andy]

I've been focusing on the machete as well. It is a stand in for me for a dussack. A historical german weapon.

I feel like it is still common to carry a machete. It is cheap. It is a tool that can also be used for defence. It is a sword that is short for confined space, and when the sword is used properly, it can be used for open scale combat.

http://www.st-max.org/FechtWeb/Images/Mdussack/D.jpg

http://www.meyercousa.com/Category/?100005=Machetes%20%26%20Saw

Meyer, the Fechtmaster that the woodcut above is from, also says that the gun is an "ignoble" weapon. At the same time, he also says that all fencers should not ignore its practice. Just like all martial artists should know, you can train your hole life an just get shot down by a punk in the street.

So, I am getting my concealed carry with my grandfathers 38.

[Coragus Corvus]

While a rifle is a good protection at home, such answers are unrealistic in a real world sense as most people would call the cops if they saw you walking down the road carrying a rifle.

In a day to day setting, I always carry a folding pocket lockblade in my pocket. It's legal except in a courthouse, and I don't need much more to fend off an attacker.

Meanwhile, I normally keep a larger fixed blade "letter opener" in my desk drawer. I work with the public, and I anticipate the day when one flies over the coocoo nest.

If you want to get a CCW, that's fine. However, I can take my pocket knife out and use it as a tool and no one bats an eye. You pull a pistol, and you don't get to back out.

[RyuJin]

i agree that a gun is an ignoble weapon...any idiot can pull a gun...it takes true skill to use any close range weapon...i live in florida and a few years ago the "shoot first" law was passed which allows us to shoot first if we feel our lives are in danger, of course the perpetrator must be armed and your firearm must be legal...for the past year businesses have been trying to make it illegal to have a gun in your car...after a year of debate the state court ruled that if the gun is legally owned then you can carry it in your car...the 3 step rule applies, retrieve, load, fire....even with the "shoot first" law there has been only a few incidences of it coming into play...the one i found most amusing was a 74 year old woman was being mugged when she reached in her purse and pulled out a .38 snubnose and shot the would be mugger in the leg...its sad that society would have to come to that, a granny shooting in self defense...

[Kitsu Tails]

I think it's really more situational based. No one weapon is really 'best' or 'better' then the other. (Depending on the situation you are in)

A good, sturdy, flip knife/dagger or something would be great to carry on a person (In pocket, purse...ect) ....heck...a Box Cutter would do nicely...used to carry one of them around all the time due to work.

A gun of sorts is great for house protection,

a longer knife, short sword, Kitchen Knife laying about the house as a back up to the gun.

A staff or spear for multiple field battles... (like your ever going to be in a field battle anytime soon.)

......and so forth and so on...Just my thoughts...

[Mindas Arran]

While a rifle is a good protection at home, such answers are unrealistic in a real world sense as most people would call the cops if they saw you walking down the road carrying a rifle.
It's not unrealistic at all, especially considering the original question which was of home defense. In my home, I don't have to carry my carbine down the road. Besides, they will call the cops if you're carrying a sword down the street just as quickly.

i agree that a gun is an ignoble weapon...any idiot can pull a gun...it takes true skill to use any close range weapon...
The gun as an ignoble weapon was espoused by people making their living off swordplay; of course they didn't like to admit that another weapon was superior in a number of scenarios. You say any idiot can pull a gun, however, that's no less than saying that any idiot can pull a knife. The fact is that any idiot could hit a pell with a sword, axe, bat, knife, ect. Perhaps not effectively, but they could at least hit the target. The number of untrained people who can hit a target at 30 yards with an auto-pistol is certainly less.

In the end, facts are facts. In home defense, my concern is the protection of my family and engaging any number of threats that come through my door. I don't care about looking good, displaying masterful technique, or even being fair and honorable. In fact, if something like this should go down (gods forbid) I want the fight as much in my favor as possible. It should never be forgotten that despite the ability to use a weapon for development of mind and body, it's function first and foremost is a tool to end life.

[jdmcowan]

As you have said before, Andy, weapons are tools and different tools are better suited for different situations. In the movies, I think the lightsaber works very well, since it is a perfet cutter and can shield against energy weapons too. For a Jedi realist, it should be something you have trained in well and is legal to carry. In Chicago, you don't have many choices - pretty much either a walking stick or a pocket knife.

But that doesn't answer the first question you asked, "What is the best sword in your eyes?" That would be a katana made by the traditional methods. The Japanese turned sword-making into an artform.

Jeremy

[Inari]

For myself, guns aren't really an option, though they are much, much more accessible here in New Zealand than they were in Australia. At heart I favour the bow though, ok it might not be practical but there you go.

I don't feel confident enough to carry around a knife...never felt the need either...but I used to carry a kubatan on my keychain and knew how to use it. Unfortunately I couldn't bring that to NZ. When I heard scary sounds in the night, I did have a short bamboo stick (like escrima) that I also carried outside with me. I figured that if someone took it off me I had a better chance than if I had a knife. My old Wing Chun instructor also taught us some baton style work with those.

Unfortunately that also disappeared in the move here *scowls*.

Nowadays, I'd carry a pointy umbrella (tski to the throat anyone?) if I felt the need while out, and would probably have my wooden tai chi sword outside with me if I felt the need. I feel very confident that particular weapon is sturdy enough to crack a skull or inflict some pretty major pain, I feel more confident with that right now than my bokken. Give me another year and it'll probably be the bokken as first choice.

I've never had the opportunity to do any knife training, unfortunately.

[Andy]

The best sword (weapon) for any situation is the one you know how to use. Like Jeremy said, there is no perfect weapon for every situation. Choose what you are familiar with.

Guns, ignoble yes, but even the old sword masters tell us to not neglect their practice. Any warrior needs to be familiar with the weapons of their age as well as those of their heritage.

[Mindas Arran]

Like Jeremy said, there is no perfect weapon for every situation.
Completely agree. However, you presented a specific scenario and I can't see how a sword, cane, pocket knife, ect. would be more effective given the parameters.

Guns, ignoble yes, but even the old sword masters tell us to not neglect their practice.
What makes firearms "ignoble"? Ignoble or not, does that have any bearing whatsoever on it's ability to function as an effective defensive weapon?

*****EDIT*****
In the event that I'm missing the spirit of the thread and it's a question of the best melee weapon overall, then I'm going to say that the staff is about as good as it gets.

If it's a question of only bladed melee weapons, then I'd have to say a short blade, like a falcata or barong.

[RyuJin]

the idiots i was referring to are the wanna be street thugs that are afraid of a fair fight and would rather pull a gun...someone using one to defend their family or home is only doing what is necessary since most assailants are armed, often with guns.
i do love the craftsmanship of japanese swords, i have 2 of em myself...the blade balance and cutting edge are phenominal...

on a somewhat related note, i was at the store tonight as i pulled up i saw a car with 3 people in it and one door open with no one sitting in the seat next to it. as i entered the store there was a "wanna be thug type" acting a bit odd...so i kept my eyes on him as i was preparing my hot chocolate thinking what a drag it would be to hafta throw it in his face....i made certain not to draw attention to myself, then he ran out the door...before the cashier made it out the door after him a female deputy was already bringing him back in, in cuffs...when i left the store i saw that the car was still there but all his buddies had bailed on him....the point being that i was prepared to act with the best weapon available to me at the time....a cup of hot chocolate...

[RyuJin]

i think part of what makes a firearm ignoble is the fact that it's quick and easy to use...you don't even have to be close to your target....for as long as i can remember i was always raised to "fight fairly"...using your hands and skills only...biting, scratching, groin shots, eye gouging, these were all considered to be taboo...dishonorable....as i got older i began to understand why some people resort to these tactics, because they work, however i still considered them dishonorable....even to this day i don't use those tactics...i do teach them to children and women...i've always been able to keep my views as my views and not force others to adopt them. when i train an apprentice i teach them all options even if i don't agree with certain ones since it's up to each person to decide for themselves.

[Charles]

Alrighty, as I recall the first part of this was general "Jedi Weapon" so it's going to have to be something I can use at home, as well as out and about, and for that the good ol walking stick. You can find well made walking sticks *or make your own* fairly cheap and they give a range advantage as well as acting as a lever or... well you know walking stick for inclement weather. If the stick has a sturdy head on it all the better as it will double as a powerful bludgeon. The advantages are obvious in the carry and conceal department. Also from a legal stand point *to counter the gun argument* it looks a LOT better in most judges eyes to say "Your honor, when he pulled his knife in my house I was just lucky to have my walking stick on hand to stop him" instead of "Your honor, I was just lucky to have sufficient caliber of fire arm that the poor sod is unidentifiable to his relatives now."

The question of legality, use of force, and adaptability of the weapon are an issue. Also it's a question of comfort. Sticks don't go off by accident, guns rarely do but what is rare and what is not is a question we don't ask once it does. Knives are sharp and thereby likewise more dangerous when not in motion to children and pets.

HOWEVER.

The question became modified to "land/home" protection. At that moment the stick remains good only in it's legality, the Machete/knife comes up next "I was just lucky I had been chopping through the forest earlier and my machete was still out." still sounds better than "Well your honor I was just glad to have purchased something of military grade capability".

Yet, the term good is still perspective. If you mean "What has the most stopping power?" then a gun, any gun honestly, big gun, small gun, it's not going to matter too much just so long as it can fire. Next up would be a good crossbow or POSSIBLY a ranged tasser. Finally your going to run into swords, staves, things like that.

Now, if you mean Good as in "overall useful" taking into account laws then your looking at tool based weapons. Machete, staff, anything like that. The reason for this is simply put the law will look more favorably on the use of such a weapon and it then doubles as a tool when not in use.

I've specifically not made mention of the chain as a weapon in this instance because it's not much of a tool and it's not something you'd carry on hand likely. It would fall into the category that I put things like "unique" weapons into. That is weapons that are not easy extensions of the body, they are as dangerous to their user as they are to the target more often than not.

So, in short, the staff has the greatest versatility, it does decent damage, good range for a melee weapon, and it won't get you in for as long in jail. However if your opponent has a gun aimed at you this all becomes a mute point. Whatever your going to do you won't be able to do it faster than they pull the trigger. If it's just a matter of stopping power and against MULTIPLE enemies you can't beat a firearm.

If your fighting a war in your house... what the heck happened !?!?!?!

For those confused I'll give a rating chart that takes into account stopping power, portability, carry ability, and alternate uses.

Staff/Cain
Knife/Machete
Gun
Long Staff/Pole Arm
Sword

However, the best weapon you can have is a great right cross. "Your honor, I was lucky I just happened to have my hands on me when the man barged into my home and threatened me."

[Mindas Arran]

Also from a legal stand point *to counter the gun argument* it looks a LOT better in most judges eyes to say "Your honor, when he pulled his knife in my house I was just lucky to have my walking stick on hand to stop him" instead of "Your honor, I was just lucky to have sufficient caliber of fire arm that the poor sod is unidentifiable to his relatives now."
The law varies from state to state. That's where knowledge and forethought goes a long way. Michigan, for instance:


ENROLLED HOUSE BILL No. 5143

AN ACT to clarify the rights and duties of self-defense and the defense of others.

The People of the State of Michigan enact:

Sec. 1. This act shall be known and may be cited as the "self-defense act".

Sec. 2. (1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:

(a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.

(b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.

(2) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses force other than deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and reasonably believes that the use of that force is necessary to defend himself or herself or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of force by another individual.

Sec. 3. Except as provided in section 2, this act does not modify the common law of this state in existence on October1, 2006 regarding the duty to retreat before using deadly force or force other than deadly force.

Sec. 4. This act does not diminish an individual's right to use deadly force or force other than deadly force in self-defense or defense of another individual as provided by the common law of this state in existence on October 1, 2006.

Enacting section 1. This act takes effect October 1, 2006.

Enacting section 2. This act does not take effect unless all of the following bills of the 93rd Legislature are enacted into law:

(a) Senate Bill No. 1046.

(b) Senate Bill No. 1185.

(c) House Bill No. 5142.

(d) House Bill No. 5153.

(e) House Bill No. 5548.

This act is ordered to take immediate effect.

[Andy]

Completely agree. However, you presented a specific scenario and I can't see how a sword, cane, pocket knife, ect. would be more effective given the parameters.


What makes firearms "ignoble"? Ignoble or not, does that have any bearing whatsoever on it's ability to function as an effective defensive weapon?

*****EDIT*****
In the event that I'm missing the spirit of the thread and it's a question of the best melee weapon overall, then I'm going to say that the staff is about as good as it gets.

If it's a question of only bladed melee weapons, then I'd have to say a short blade, like a falcata or barong.

More or less, i had to give a situation because i was getting the obvious answer of "what ever i had at hand" I had to change it so the situation was one that you could plan for, and therefore be able to choose the weapon you would be able to grab.

Guns were ignoble in the fact that they were the weapon of the common soldier. It was MUCH faster to arm and train an army of infantry armed with rifles than it was to train an army of trained melee soldiers. It takes along time to get good at close combat. Not so much to train someone to point and shoot with a gun.

The fencing masters of the renaissance were more pragmatic than their baroque counterparts. A renissance sword master would advise a student to be familar with firearms, after all, before the baroque period, the students at the fechtschools were independent military contractors.

Durring the baroque period, after firearms had been introduced, fencing and learning close personal combat was hugely expensive and for the most part, unnecessary for the common solider. Those that could afford the martial training were the nobility. This created the myth that using a sword was somehow more noble than using a firearm.

Now just because it was ignoble does not make someone any less dead. I think all jedi would agree that utility, efficiency and safety are more important in todays world than some sense of moral haughtiness.

I am not talking about any sort of melee weapon or gun. This is just a question in general. It has already sparked discussion about melee vs firearms and even one firearm vs another.

[Inari]

Is it necessary to always make someone 'dead'? Sure, dead means they aren't going to give you any more trouble...not right then anyway, the paperwork'll be a killer later on. What is wrong with unconscious or in sufficient pain to lose interest in what they were doing?

[Andy]

Well thats one of the points of debate with firearms. When you shoot at someone, there is a huge chance they will die. So if death is the desired result, go with that.

A big selling point for melee arms is that they are not necessarily deadly. There are numerous less than lethal sword techniques i can name for example. Poles and batons also less than lethal for the most part.

[jdmcowan]

It's interesting that the Michigan "HOUSE BILL No. 5143" does not include home invasion as a reason to use deadly force or even "force other than deadly force". If someone breaks into your house, you can threaten them with your gun, but don't pull the trigger unless they actually produce some sort of real threat. It makes sense I guess, but on some level, if I had a gun and someone broke into my house, I'd like the right to wing him just for violating my personal and private property. Then again, I guess that's vindictive and not productive.

It's interesting to think about the possible scenarios. The way I see it, when an intruder is faced with a gun, he has 4 options. He can turn tail and run (in which case you don't need to shoot). He can immediately surrender and wait while you call the cops (in which case you don't need to shoot). He can attempt to engage you and hope that he wins (most times you would be able to shoot here). He can ignore you and go about his business robbing you. What do you do then? He's not threatening death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault, so you can't use even "force other than deadly force".

Jeremy

[Kitsu Tails]

Is it necessary to always make someone 'dead'? Sure, dead means they aren't going to give you any more trouble...not right then anyway, the paperwork'll be a killer later on. What is wrong with unconscious or in sufficient pain to lose interest in what they were doing?


I doubt anyone here is condoning the ideals of killing someone. I didn't hear anyone say 'Shoot first, ask questions later' However, if my home were to be invaded Id rather have a good gun out, aimed, and ready. Does that mean I have to shoot and kill right off the bat? Heck No!!! Ideally Id rather see the guy back up slowly, apologize and get off my property without any bloodshed...However, That doesn't mean I'm going to take the chances and stand there without being armed either. There are alot of crazy and insane folks out there, you never know what could happen!

Intimidation can be just as much a powerful weapon as the gun itself. If I had an A.K. Pointed at my forehead you can bet Id be blabbering off a string of apologies and getting the heck out of there. I would also never try and invade that house again. The defender never even had to pull the trigger, heck for all I know...the gun could of been empty of amo.

So no, it is not always necessary to always make someone 'dead', in fact...it is a last resort! However, It is also your duty and responsibility to make sure you are fully prepared in case the situation required nothing less. Some of us have families to care for, children counting on you to protect them. If you don't take the initive when that time (If there is ever a time) come's, then you will of submitted your family and kids to a potential threat far worse then death. Again...there are alot of sick people out there.

A gun has a higher grantee to their safety, then the hopeful skill of 'kung fu'


Just my personal thoughts.

[RyuJin]

Intimidation can be just as much a powerful weapon as the gun itself. If I had an A.K. Pointed at my forehead you can bet Id be blabbering off a string of apologies and getting the heck out of there. I would also never try and invade that house again. The defender never even had to pull the trigger, heck for all I know...the gun could of been empty of amo.


you hit the nail on the head there kitsu....when i had a handgun i kept it unloaded most of the time and that was more then enough to dissuade would be trouble....in the 12 years since i've been out of the military i've only had to actually pull the trigger once, but i made sure to miss...i only wanted to scare them off....6 of those wanna be thugs attacked my mom and threatened my brother in law and sister with a 9mm hand gun....2 hours later they came back and i was home...waiting with my 44magnum....i know those types very well and often know what they'll do and when...they tried to jump my brother in law while he was in the front yard so i came out and made sure they saw the 44....seeing it wasn't enough for them, when they went to pull their gun out of the car i had no other option...i had him lined up then i adjusted to miss by only 8 inches...close enough for him to feel the wind...that was enough for them to leave and they never came back ...that was 8 months ago

[stancheung75]

I have attended a Sword and Bullwhip seminar with Swordmaster Anthony DeLongis. After it I am very convinced a Bullwhip is a great versatile weapon.

Is it as effective as a gun?? No, I would be foolish to make that claim. I have nothing against guns. But I'm convinced that it's already an arguable conclusion that the gun at present day is the "king" of weapons.

But short of that I really like the bullwhip. In long range it can cut you up. Also it can wrap around you to tie you up. Mid range it can be folded in and used like a soft chain. It has the ability to be a grappling weapon to trap limbs and choke. The handle can be turned over and used as a baton or give it some slack to use as a flail like weapon.

The noise is a great attention getter. Some people might lose their nerves just be being intimidated by the cracking sound. Trust me when you hear boom from breaking the sound barrier you instantly notice.

video on Anthony (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYwKFTOB0bc)

[Ro-Ha Til'leto]

Now just because it was ignoble does not make someone any less dead. I think all jedi would agree that utility, efficiency and safety are more important in todays world than some sense of moral haughtiness.
Not to stray too far from the main topic, but as Jedi, where do you draw the line in the case of personal/home defense? The Jedi Code says to defend and protect, but also respect all life, in any form. I realize no one is saying 'shoot first, ask later', but a home invasion situation can escalate very quickly to the use of deadly force being justified. With that legal justification, would you refrain from killing the intruder, or would you exercise your legal right?

I think in the defense of my family, I would be totally guilty of overkill. I know that sentiment isn't very Jedi. But, when it comes to defending my children from serious harm, I'm dancing on the Dark Side.

[Andy]

I think in the defense of my family, I would be totally guilty of overkill. I know that sentiment isn't very Jedi. But, when it comes to defending my children from serious harm, I'm dancing on the Dark Side.

Probably why jedi in the fiction are not allowed to have families or marry.

I would be in the same boat as you though. I keep all sorts of blades and blunt objects in my house and would end up getting which ever one was closest to me.

[Austin Skywalker]

1. A stungun/tazer
2. Baton
3. Martial Arts
4. Your mind
5. Paper Airplane
6. A hotdog
7. Anyhting around you can be made into a weapon, even a stuffed animal or a playing card or credit card or key.

Some police departments play certain kinds of music/sounds. Here is some music they use:
Britney Spears
Barney the Dinosaur
Meow Mix theme song
Christina Aguilera
Lady Gaga

Here are some sounds:
VERY HIGH PITCHED NOISES

I believe in most states you dont need a CCW for a stun gun, but if you plan on getting a stun gun then check with the state laws to see if you do need one.

[Mindas Arran]

It's interesting that the Michigan "HOUSE BILL No. 5143" does not include home invasion as a reason to use deadly force or even "force other than deadly force".
As I understand it (and I'm not a lawyer, so this is far from legal advice), the Bill is an extension of the Castle Doctrine. Rather than saying what your rights are in your own home, they are saying you are within your rights in any place where you have the legal right to be (as long as you're not committing a crime).


If someone breaks into your house, you can threaten them with your gun, but don't pull the trigger unless they actually produce some sort of real threat.
It's perceived threat. I was showing an article to Charles, for instance, where a guy was shot and killed while trying to rob a store with an airsoft pistol. It was deemed by the courts to be justified since there was perceived threat. If a person breaks into your home, you've no idea if he is armed or not, but you might have reasonable belief that he is there to do you harm.

@Skywalker, the very idea of jabbing someone in the eye with a paper airplane then assaulting him with the Meow Mix theme song, I almost fell out of chair laughing! :sFun_rofl:

[Inari]

I'm glad I don't live in America.

[RyuJin]

I think in the defense of my family, I would be totally guilty of overkill. I know that sentiment isn't very Jedi. But, when it comes to defending my children from serious harm, I'm dancing on the Dark Side.

this is where my views of light and dark may vary from others, your intentions are to protect out of love(a very light action), however you may have to take life(a very dark action). as long as you have remorse for the loss of life, then you did nothing truly dark. you did what was necessary to protect, sometimes this unfortunately requires sacrifice...some people even after being shot don't go down and stay down, i personally know an old family friend that was shot at point blank in the chest with a 44magnum and he didn't go down, he managed to overpower the shooter until police arrived. the shooter had raped in killed the family friends wife...


Probably why jedi in the fiction are not allowed to have families or marry.

this is exactly why they weren't allowed to have families or marry ....it put them in a position of having to choose one life over another. however it also deprived them of the greatest strength available....love....look at the phenominal feats people have been able to do in order to save someone they loved

@Skywalker, the very idea of jabbing someone in the eye with a paper airplane then assaulting him with the Meow Mix theme song, I almost fell out of chair laughing!

i agree that thought was very hilarious

[Mindas Arran]

I'm glad I don't live in America.
Yeah... what a shame to live in a place where you can legally defend yourself and your family...

[Andy]

Just as an example of why i am glad i don't have a loaded fire arm at hand. My drunken brother broke into my house one night. He peeked his head through the bedroom door and almost got a face full of louisville slugger. The only thing that stopped me was that he spoke before i got a chance to club him. If i had a gun, i may have just shot though the door. I am glad i did not have that option. Guns give you a far to permanent option.

[RyuJin]

hmm...i sense that this thread has finally run it's course and is beginning to draw out too much emotion.....dead horse, time to bury....

[Charles]

I disagree on the dead horse.

Alrighty, Kitsu brought forth the most important factor in a guns favor.

INTIMIDATION.

Any weapon that intimidates reduces it's need to be used. Again, if the person coming into your home intends to harm you, and they are armed with a gun and drawn, you are basically dead anyway. Yet if you have a gun of your own drawn you gain one possible advantage even if its not aimed. You just became a serious distance threat.

Otherwise, assuming the attacker doesn't have a drawn gun and the distances aren't too long any intimidating weapon changes the nature of the situation greatly. If I have my hammer or katana drawn and someone is breaking into my home, armed with something lesser than a hand gun/rifle, they are going to feel the sudden dread of intimidation. Armed with a hand gun they are going to feel like they have control.

Does this imediatly escalate the gun to a better position?

Absolutely not, it simply means it covers different scenarios. Another major factor is the "Forcing of someones hand" in a break in. If someone breaks into your home and you do NOT shoot first, ask questions latter, and rely on intimidation in the least that fear could cause them to fire upon you first.

It's unpredictable and it's all very circumstantial. I'd say a gun is one of the more well rounded home defense options. However it's a personal choice and the factors involved in it range from humanitarian to civil, from ease of use to ease of care, and from legal to social.

[Justaguy]

As I understand it (and I'm not a lawyer, so this is far from legal advice), the Bill is an extension of the Castle Doctrine. Rather than saying what your rights are in your own home, they are saying you are within your rights in any place where you have the legal right to be (as long as you're not committing a crime).



It's perceived threat. I was showing an article to Charles, for instance, where a guy was shot and killed while trying to rob a store with an airsoft pistol. It was deemed by the courts to be justified since there was perceived threat. If a person breaks into your home, you've no idea if he is armed or not, but you might have reasonable belief that he is there to do you harm.



It's all in what you can articulate. If someone is in your house, you absolutely have burglary/criminal trespass, but can you articulate that you felt your life was in danger ? Unfortunately, the fact that someone is in your house is not in and of itself enough.

In your second example. That was absolutely the correct decision. If someone pulls a gun, you don't have to stand around and wait to see if it's loaded, or even a real gun.

As for wounding someone, i.e. oh, just shoot'em in the leg, as is shown on TV. That's exactly what it is, TV.

Owning a gun with the intentions of using it for home protection is not one of those half way things. If you have it and intend to use it. You also have to be prepared for the legal/moral responsibilities and consequences that go with it.

I'll get off of my soap box now......lol

[Ro-Ha Til'leto]

It's all in what you can articulate. If someone is in your house, you absolutely have burglary/criminal trespass, but can you articulate that you felt your life was in danger ? Unfortunately, the fact that someone is in your house is not in and of itself enough.
You and I may not feel like we're in danger, but my or someone else's wife (being home alone) may feel otherwise.

[Justaguy]

You and I may not feel like we're in danger, but my or someone else's wife (being home alone) may feel otherwise.

You're absolutely correct. I agree with what you are saying. But, what I was getting at is that there is no cookie cutter answer, and if you have to go to court for something like this, it's all in what you can articulate.

[Ro-Ha Til'leto]

Agreed. And, not only what you yourself can articulate, but what your attorney can convey to a judge or jury.

[Ro-Ha Til'leto]

Yeah... what a shame to live in a place where you can legally defend yourself and your family...
Maybe she was referring to the vast number of psychos, sickos and whackos we have in the States...

[Mindas Arran]

Off the subject of morality, and on the subject of the weapons themselves... I just received my Cold Steel 12" Barong, and let me tell you... 1055 steel, textured poly grips, and heavy. Definitely worth the < 20$ price tag.

[RedHeron]

Just wanted to weigh in on this:

The tool in one's hand doesn't matter. It is the body trained to use a weapon, and the mind that controls it which is the real weapon. The tool doesn't have intent, or knowledge, and therefore the "best tool" is a situational thing, and also dependent upon each individual. Two people going into a situation may actually be evenly matched, though one carries a 9mm with CB hollow-points, and the other carries a cheap $50 saber he bought from the Bud-K catalog. And another may be even more effective completely unarmed--the body, in this case, is more effective as a weapon than the pistol.

It depends on the thoughts of both individuals as they go into the situation, their intent, their experience and training, etc., rather than on what they have in their hands. A sword doesn't need to be reloaded and has no real report, though a pistol can be fired from 50 feet away and be extremely accurate. The point is that unless one is effective with what they are using as a weapon, it's not a threat.

And that's the point of a weapon: to be a threat. A police officer carries a weapon so that they can be the biggest threat, and allow the "lesser threats" of law-abiding civilians to get away. A Jedi (the one in the movies) carries a saber for the same reason.

It's not the sword, firearm, etc., itself; it's the thought behind it which is the real weapon.

Just my own opinion.

[Ro-Ha Til'leto]

We've covered a lot of ground, especially in the area of home defense. To take the original thought one step further, I put forth 2 more questions:


The fictional Jedi were guardians of peace in the galaxy, and they protected this peace by traveling to all parts. So...

1) What do you think a modern-day Jedi should carry when traveling abroad?



The lightsaber was the symbol of a Jedi. So...

2) Within the limits of current science & local, State and Federal laws, what do you think would be the most symbolic (or at least legal) item to carry that would distinguish one as a Jedi?

When I say symbolic, I don't necessarily mean effective. A gun in the hands of someone untrained is not very effective, but it's still a powerful symbol.

[RyuJin]

an auto-baton is legal in most states...however when traveling by plane i don't think you can carry anything except yourself onto the plane....if you're going for simply symbolism i would have to say a lightsaber hilt....if i can ever get a mill/lathe i'm going to try and combine an auto-baton with a lightsaber hilt...it would be similar to a toy lightsaber in the sense that the extendable baton would come out of the hilt however the baton would be made of steel instead of plastic....

[Ro-Ha Til'leto]

an auto-baton is legal in most states...however when traveling by plane i don't think you can carry anything except yourself onto the plane....if you're going for simply symbolism i would have to say a lightsaber hilt....if i can ever get a mill/lathe i'm going to try and combine an auto-baton with a lightsaber hilt...it would be similar to a toy lightsaber in the sense that the extendable baton would come out of the hilt however the baton would be made of steel instead of plastic....
I have an auto-baton and an ASP. The auto is cooler because, well, it's automatic, but it doesn't extend as far as the ASP. Cool idea though for integrating one into a saber hilt...

As for symbolism and effectiveness, I guess I'm looking for both, although there may not be anything that fits the bill...



For transport on airplanes:

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/prohibited/permitted-prohibited-items.shtm

[RyuJin]

lol that's why i was thinking of combining the auto-baton with the saber hilt....it would then have the jedi symbolic nature as well as the effectiveness of an auto-baton since it could be used essentially the same as a saber or any other fighting stick....it's kind of funny how i came up with that idea....i have one of those "build your own saber" toy kits and i was looking at it when the radio antenna for my alarm clock broke...as i sat there looking at the antenna, it just occurred to me that it would be a step closer to having an actual saber...sure it wouldn't be all glowy and cut through anything but it would give a jedi a practical defensive tool that they could carry on them legally(in most states).....cool looks and practicality....it's a win-win situation :)

[Ro-Ha Til'leto]

That's a cool combo, but is that what would best represent a Jedi Realist? I wasn't looking too hard into items that resembled sabers or saber hilts, but maybe that's all there is...

Maybe as a modern Jedi, there isn't anything to carry at all, I don't know... I was just kicking the idea around for something, that when looked at, says "Jedi Realist", other than a T-shirt. Something that fit the bill as practical, yet unique, like a lightsaber was to the fictional characters. And since I travel A LOT, I was looking for ideas that wouldn't get automatically confiscated by airport security or Customs when I fly to work.

Or, maybe I'm putting toooooooo much thought into this. May be........

Either way, if you make progress on your combo, post up some pics so we can all see your progress (if you don't mind).

[RyuJin]

that is the one beauty of being autocad certified...i can create a 3d model of what i'm trying to do and it provides a great visual aid...i suppose i could change the file format so it could be viewed without autocad....though i've never tinkered with the formats before...i usually just leave all my work in default formats

[Ro-Ha Til'leto]

that is the one beauty of being autocad certified...i can create a 3d model of what i'm trying to do and it provides a great visual aid...i suppose i could change the file format so it could be viewed without autocad....though i've never tinkered with the formats before...i usually just leave all my work in default formats
Export the .dwg to JPG so the rest of us without CAD can see...


Thanks!

[Charles]

I'd say a walking stick is your best bet. It will likely make it through air port security, it's not something people take too much notice of, it's archaic, and it's effective as a weapon, lever, and general tool. It lacks however compactness.

[Ro-Ha Til'leto]

I'd say a walking stick is your best bet. It will likely make it through air port security, it's not something people take too much notice of, it's archaic, and it's effective as a weapon, lever, and general tool. It lacks however compactness.
I was kicking that idea around, as it does meet part of the criteria (usefulness), but does it really symbolize a Jedi Realist?

Symbolism is the hardest part of the equation I think. Generally speaking, you see a cross, you know that it's Christian, you see an asklepian, you know it's related to medicine and healing. I wear a square and compass ring and most would recognize it as the symbol of a Freemason. But what is there for a Jedi Realist (other than a T-shirt)?

Meditate on this, I will...


BTW, my personal favorite site for canes: http://www.canemasters.com/

[Charles]

Ah, for a Jedi realist, nothing sadly. Anything we wear would yell fan boy. The only way to change that perspective would be to uniformly adopt something. Mind you, in your town or home you could do something and through explanation over months and years it would become "well known" but to the world at large ANYTHING that barrows from Star Wars will scream "fanatic" not "realist".

[Ro-Ha Til'leto]

Ah, for a Jedi realist, nothing sadly. Anything we wear would yell fan boy. The only way to change that perspective would be to uniformly adopt something. Mind you, in your town or home you could do something and through explanation over months and years it would become "well known" but to the world at large ANYTHING that barrows from Star Wars will scream "fanatic" not "realist".
Yeah, that's my feeling as well... And even if there was something that screamed 'realist', what would be the odds of getting all JRs to adopt it?

[Kitsu Tails]

ANYTHING that barrows from Star Wars will scream "fanatic" not "realist".

.....Like calling yourself a 'Jedi' ;)

[Ro-Ha Til'leto]

Would a thread called 'How to get Jedi Realism out of the fan-boy category in the world view' be beneficial in generating some positive ideas for moving the community forward?


...or is the world view really that import?

[RyuJin]

who cares what everyone else thinks of us... :)
we are who we are, and we will be who we are regardless of what others think of us. an ignorant mind condemns what it doesn't understand. a wise mind seeks to understand what it doesn't.

in truth i don't think anything we do would convince others that we're not fanboys/girls. but our actions would certainly cause some to reconsider their views.

if we wore the robes regularly we would no doubt appear as monks to some and costumed fanboys/girls to others. if we had the saber hilt we would appear only as fanboys/girls.

in the end only our actions would be able to convince others of our views and intents

[Charles]

@Kitsu: Exactly. That's any belief that barrows from a fictional landscape sadly. It always brings a stigmata with it.

@Ro: I don't think it'd hurt but I don't think it'd help much. The problem is the perspective. If you tell someone your a "Spiritual Knight" people nod and your suddenly a sage. If you tell them your a "Jedi Knight" your a loony. If you tell them your studying Kung Fu your a wise enlightened one. If you tell them your studying boxing your a savage. People have the dispositions based on what is easiest for them to see.

@Ryu: The problem is, what ARE we doing? Nothing we do would show them "that Jedi are like this" it shows only that the person doing the action is "like this" it's the nature of a community that is not really organized. If I tell you that Catholics help feed the hungry and poor I can get you national levels of evidence to back that up. If I tell you Jedi help in that same way I might only have 20 examples of it. More over the idea of what a Jedi is has become sufficiently diversified that it really is a lie in some ways to say "A Jedi does this" the truth of the matter is that "I do this" or "You do this" or that, or whatever. If we happen to call ourselves Jedi while doing it that is fine but it doesn't say that Jedi, as a whole, do as such.

[Ro-Ha Til'leto]

We're straying off course again...

I'll go start another thread.

[Ro-Ha Til'leto]

On second thought, no I won't. Charles, you hit the nail on the head.

Thanks!

[RedHeron]

Apologies for the long post, folks...

We've covered a lot of ground, especially in the area of home defense. To take the original thought one step further, I put forth 2 more questions:


The fictional Jedi were guardians of peace in the galaxy, and they protected this peace by traveling to all parts. So...

1) What do you think a modern-day Jedi should carry when traveling abroad?


A disposable soda straw, two fine-tip ballpoint pens, a palm-sides notepad, a small stack of paper napkins, four portioned packets of sugar, six portioned packets of salt, and a small stone with a religious symbol on it inside of a cloth pouch.

The soda straw... it is a great weapon, and lethal when used correctly. I'm being perfectly serious, for those who are chuckling right now. I've plunged them into potatoes and pork roasts... they really do work without modification as a weapon. I'm not explaining how here. :sHa_hehe:

The ballpoint pens... well, because it's handy to have them to jot down odd insights that come at relatively inopportune moments. Not to mention, if the soda straw fails, the same defense doesn't work as well with the tube around the outside.

The notepad... the wire on the binding is great for many, many things. It's not only a weapon, it's a lifesaving device as well, if you know how. Also, the paper makes a great writing surface for the aforementioned jotting down.

The paper napkins... they're good for drawing on, and for jotting down anything for those you need to leave information for. Combined with the sugar, salt, and some water, they can be made into a single-use knife which has a significant amount of stabbing power. I haven't tried this, personally, but I did read it in a survival book one time, and I've heard that it was used in Russian prisons for a while.

The stone with the symbol on it inside the cloth pouch is what everyone thinks is a weapon, so it tends to get confiscated in places like airports (or, really, any place that's high security these days). However, if it passes, then there's no better way to get the attention of a would-be terrorist who is hijacking your plane than holding that in your hand and using it to reinforce a quick uppercut to the chin (or whatever). The cloth bag should have a drawstring for wrapping around your wrist, so that you don't lose it if your hand gets whapped. It is, after all, a religious symbol.

Now that I've thoroughly scared away anyone with thoughts of meeting me, let me just reiterate that it's not the tool in someone's hand that we should be concerned with, but the mind behind it.



The lightsaber was the symbol of a Jedi. So...

2) Within the limits of current science & local, State and Federal laws, what do you think would be the most symbolic (or at least legal) item to carry that would distinguish one as a Jedi?

When I say symbolic, I don't necessarily mean effective. A gun in the hands of someone untrained is not very effective, but it's still a powerful symbol.

How about a tiny pin with the "Saber of Light" logo from the New Republic Jedi... it's small enough that it doesn't scream "nutjob" and clear enough in meaning to mark those who wear it.

This assumes, of course, that the Jedi really wants to be noticed.


I'd say a walking stick is your best bet. It will likely make it through air port security, it's not something people take too much notice of, it's archaic, and it's effective as a weapon, lever, and general tool. It lacks however compactness.


Walking sticks, unless medically cleared, sometimes don't make it through airport security, just FYI. I wrote my list above with just this post in mind, though I thought the other post I quoted was equally worthy.


if we wore the robes regularly we would no doubt appear as monks to some and costumed fanboys/girls to others. if we had the saber hilt we would appear only as fanboys/girls.


I would tend to disagree with you on two counts:


We would appear as nutjob fans, since that is the expectation for seeing anyone wearing a movie costume.
Monks wear robes which are to show that they are religious, not to associate with a "space opera for geeks" (if you'll excuse the derogatory remarks).


I've argued that we might adopt a uniform of a hooded sweatshirt over a thift-store button-up, with denim jeans and work boots, since the people in the movies tended not to really notice the Jedi until the lightsaber came out. They were said to wear "simple robes" and weren't terribly out of place basically anywhere.

The best sword for a Jedi is therefore one which is carried in the mind and in the heart, though I would love to see enough Jedi in a place that swords become commonplace again. Ah... I can dream, but really, people are afraid of the obvious weapons and never stop to consider the ones which aren't worn in public. This is a great justification for martial arts training.

[Charles]

I tried the straw thing and it does penetrate the potato. Sadly my hand is still in tact (and yes I was willing to risk it). Laura stopped me before I made mashed potato's with my bokken so I could give you some concrete data on walking stick damage vs potato resistance.

[RyuJin]

rofl....

i know of several other basic commonplace items that have been used for weapons behind bars....newspapers, shoelaces, toothbrushes, floss....

[Charles]

Floss yes, news papper.. yeah if you wet and harden it with enough of them maybe, shoelaces yeah, toothbrushes definitly, floss with enough of it I could see. The problem is when in a combat situation will you have easy access to your floss in such a way you can draw and attack with it in the same motions? If you can't then while it "may be improvised as a weapon" it really isn't that dangerous. Key's on a key chain may be your best "draw and strike" weapon right now on all the lists of "draw and strike" weapons. Mind you, this isn't a role playing game we are talking about, none of us are McGuyver either, and I doubt we will have the initiative and superhuman skills to retrieve and draw our toothbrush in an emergency situation. If even the presence of mind to do so.

[stancheung75]

I'd say a walking stick is your best bet. It will likely make it through air port security, it's not something people take too much notice of, it's archaic, and it's effective as a weapon, lever, and general tool. It lacks however compactness.

great sugestion. I am a firm believer in the effectivness of the cane. I have trained with some HAPKIDO practicioners. They are known to train in three weapons Cane, Belt & knife. I also attended seminars with Mark Shuey Sr. "The Cane Master". They will put up a very pursuasive arguments to why the cane is the ultimate leagal weapon (one of the few times I don't use the word "tool")

In the seminars we were told to tell whoever stops us to say we have and ankle injury. They are hard to prove because it's difficult to see on xrays.

The compactness of it shouldn't be an issue. As a symbol to carry we want it to be more visable. Canemasters does an awesome job etching symbols and logos onto the canes as well as embedding some "bling" on.

They are most creative when it comes to tooling the cane for combat. They make the crook oversized to catch limbs better. They can custom sharpen the horn to provide a very painful dig into the opponent. The cane can be made with grip nubs along the shaft to get a better hold for joint locks. They will carve serrated "sharkteeth" to cut against exposed knuckles.

[jdmcowan]

Wow! Cane Masters is the coolest. I've never heard of them, but what a great idea. I may just join up and find out if Mark Shuey will be passing by Chicago any time in the not too distant future.

Jeremy

[stancheung75]

I just saw him this past Friday at The Martial Arts Trade Show in Atlantic City. He didn't do a seminar this year. But his passion for the cane is undeniable.

Before I met him I had a lot of reservation about his stuff. I thought some of the stuff he was teaching didn't cater to the people who needed the cane the most. He was teaching people to hook onto the neck with the cane and perform a high kick to the head.

When asked about this he said that was just a publicity photo. But the majority of the techniques wouldn't work for a person who really needs a cane. He looks at the cane as the ultimate weapon to be used by civillians.

But he does have a program called Cane Fu that is more catered to the handicapped and elderly. So now everyone can use it.

He also mentioned that he consulted Author Tom Clancy about the cane. He featured it in one of his book. The next thing he knew a lot of goverment agents ordered from his company in masses.

He also uses the cane as a workout system with tension bands.

[RyuJin]

i finally solved the issue of combining an autobaton with a lightsaber hilt....the answer just came to me out of nowhere the other night...now all i have to do is bang out the drawing and get some tools and supplies to make the prototype....when complete it could be worn like a normal saber hilt and with the led it could be passed off as a fancy flashlight, while concealing an auto-baton....good looks, and multi-functionality....i'm excited to get started on it...

[stancheung75]

There are some asp batons that has an led flashight on the butt cap. The inventor of the led cap wanted to pass it off as a flashlight for everyday use.

Great idea. I can't wait to see the drawings of your concept.

[Andy]

Here is an idea, why pass things off as a tool that does not exist, why not just use the tool itself?

[Darth Jediforever!]

i think the Katana is the best by far, i can slice through many thick reeds with own personal one, although ive never really tested iit im already convinced of its potency

[Macgilleon]

I am truly amazed that the "best Sword" discussion is including firearms. Guns have no place in a melee weapon based query...lol

Now as to Day to day blades, My preference is the grohmann #3 lightweight sturdy holds a fine edge sits nicely on a belt and one can draw it just as comfortably in the field as you can in a resturant when they forget to bring a steak knife...lol

long blades I've always been a fan of the Claymore but i might be a touch biased, or the Basket hilted claymore( much easier to wield although not as imposing)

And If I may speak to firearms, Most Canadians only use rifles for hunting and I am using a .300 Savage that's 60 years old. But military grade weapons I prefer the MP5 and the Sig Sauer 226 over the M16 types

[Kitsu Tails]

I am truly amazed that the "best Sword" discussion is including firearms. Guns have no place in a melee weapon based query...lol

Personally I think the title of the thread was misinterpreted to the OP's intentions of the thread....since a few posts down on the first page he turns around and states "...Lets say this is for home/ land protection." Which tell's me the thread is meant to discuss all forms of weapons and not just "Swords" I could be wrong though...

[Andy]

sword was just the term i used to initate the thread. People started using the gun as their weapon of choice, which is usually the case when you talk about using a sword. There is always that person that says "yea well i would use a gun" so i changed it to just what weapon and why.

[Mindas Arran]

Well, you did say...
I am not specifically talking about only swords, this includes any weapon.
... so you can't blame me for being practical and choosing the most effective weapon I have at my disposal. :P

Most Canadians only use rifles for hunting and I am using a .300 Savage that's 60 years old.
I've got an 8mm Mauser that's from WW2. Still runs smooth as silk. I love those old rifles!

[Zaron]

I personally hate guns because as ryujin said anybody could use one and they take almost zero skill. My choice would be a standered old long sword nothing fancy that or a cutlass like the ones the caverly used to use. Staffs are cool and all but you are more likely to hurt yourself then anybody else unless you have years of practice. all weapons have there own abilities and all but I belive in skill not dumb luck

[Kitsu Tails]

I find it interesting that some of you would pit skill over your families safety and lives.....A life on the line is not meant to show off your own skill in weaponry, it's meant to save lives, and possibly taking life in the process. Such actions are meant to be respected...not played with.

There will be pleanty of time for "Skill" in the practice ring.

[Andy]

Personally i don't see why there is a dichotomy created between the skillful and the practical. In an age of guns and easy kills, skill will profit a man nothing if they die too early to use it. Be a good shot, be a good fighter. Give me a rifle on my shoulder and a sword at my side. Though i did not specify for this discussion the range of engagement, which is good because it has given argument to a whole spectrum of arms.

[RyuJin]

in this day and age one must be very adaptive and capable of wielding any weapon whether melee, firearm, or improvised, because let's face it...you may not always have a standard weapon or your weapon of choice handy....

home defense does not always require killing the intruder even if they are armed, sometimes with some skill, stealth, and luck you can immobilize them before they ever have a chance to use their weapon...

as i learned in psychology...just because someone has a gun on them it doesn't always mean they intend to use it...read the body language, and the eyes...if there's a glimmer of fear, they will most likely not use it...if they have a stony look be worried because they will most likely use it no matter what...also look at the hands for any tremors and look to see if the finger is actually on the trigger...i'm not saying that if they show fear they won't use it...they're just less likely to use it because they know the severity of that decision and that scares them....the stone faced ones know the same thing but don't care.... just a thought

[RyuJin]

in addendum...always evaluate the situation first...make sure taking action makes sense in order to save lives, otherwise if you act in haste you may do more harm then good

[Mindas Arran]

I personally hate guns because as ryujin said anybody could use one and they take almost zero skill.
How much skill does it take to use a sword? You hold the handle and swing it at somebody. You could have no skill whatsoever and it would still injure, maim, or kill if the blow lands. Knives, swords, axes, baseball bats, ect.; they are all similar in that respect.

[jdmcowan]

I find it interesting that some of you would pit skill over your families safety and lives.....A life on the line is not meant to show off your own skill in weaponry, it's meant to save lives, and possibly taking life in the process. Such actions are meant to be respected...not played with.

There will be pleanty of time for "Skill" in the practice ring.

I think I might be misunderstanding or missing some info. In what way is anyone putting skill over lives? Isn't the point to use your skills to protect your family? I haven't noticed anyone saying they would start showing off when confronted. Did I miss something?

Jeremy

[jdmcowan]

Ah! I think I see now that Mindas quoted Zaron. I think there're two discussions happening here. One is practical and one is idealistic. I'm not sure were're always drawing the line clearly, but the difference has been clear in my mind so I didn't see a conflict.

I'll see if I can express my dislike of guns to see if that helps anyone. A gun can often decide the final outcome in a split second effected greatly by luck. While there is skill in the speed and accuracy of aiming there are also a lot of variables beyond the shooters control that can effect that one almost instantaneous outcome. A sword, on the other hand, generally requires a more drawn out exchange of skill which allows the random variables to be negated and the training and talent to show through more clearly in the outcome. Also, because of the more drawn-out exchange, a sword requires more general fitness and self-control. On top of all that, with a sword you have much more control over the amount and type of damage done. For all these reasons I find the sword to be more elegant and guns to be extremely crude.

That all said, if guns were legal in Chicago, there's a good chance that I would have one and that I would train with it regularly.

Staffs are cool and all but you are more likely to hurt yourself then anybody else unless you have years of practice.

I also find this quote of Zaron's a little perplexing. This is even more true of the sword than of the staff. Just about anyone can swing a bat without hurting themselves, but cutting yourself with a bladed weapon is very common.

Jeremy

[Justaguy]

I personally hate guns because as ryujin said anybody could use one and they take almost zero skill. My choice would be a standered old long sword nothing fancy that or a cutlass like the ones the caverly used to use. Staffs are cool and all but you are more likely to hurt yourself then anybody else unless you have years of practice. all weapons have there own abilities and all but I belive in skill not dumb luck

I think one of the assumptions being made is that firearms are not an acquired skill. I've taken courses and classes and seen individuals who discharged ten rounds from 7 and a half yards and did not hit the target once. One person discharged three rounds into the ground before he even sited up his firearm. Firearms are not a given.:)

[Andy]

How much skill does it take to use a sword? You hold the handle and swing it at somebody. You could have no skill whatsoever and it would still injure, maim, or kill if the blow lands. Knives, swords, axes, baseball bats, ect.; they are all similar in that respect.

Pointy end goes in the other guy right?

[Justaguy]

Did you just quote Antonio Banderas ?...... Get out.
:)

[RyuJin]

I think one of the assumptions being made is that firearms are not an acquired skill. I've taken courses and classes and seen individuals who discharged ten rounds from 7 and a half yards and did not hit the target once. One person discharged three rounds into the ground before he even sited up his firearm. Firearms are not a given.:)

3 rounds into the ground before even sighting...:sCo_chinscratch: how did they pull that off?

10 rounds from 7 1/2 yards and all missed? maybe some neon paint was needed?:sHa_hehe:

myself i had a friend in the navy on security that accidentally shot his shift supervisor in the foot, while clearing his weapon(which your suppose to do by aiming in this barrel full of sand), then another friend accidentally shot out the windshield of his patrol truck....if they had swords that wouldn't have happened...

my theory of gun control is very simple...give an i.q. test those that fail can't own a gun

[RyuJin]

a reversed blade sword would be good, as the sharp edge is on the "wrong" side you could then use it the same as normal but with much less fatal results, and if it came to it just flip your grip though your fighting style would then have to be modified to account for the reversed curve of the blade

[Charles]

my theory of gun control is very simple...give an i.q. test those that fail can't own a gun

That's why they go steel one, or buy one black market.

As for all that came before that. Once you engage in combat the first "hit" generally decides the outcome. I don't mean sparing, or practice, or even a high intensity match,I mean COMBAT. The first good jab from your fist breaks a man's nose and makes the next couple punches easy to land and knock him out. The first major cut from a sword on his hands causes extreme bleeding. The first good shot from the gun sends him into shock. The question then becomes Range, Ease of Use, Portability, and Reload. The gun, generally, excels in all 4 areas. Generally even a revolver has a shorter setup time than a sword, staff, or club. Range is a given with a gun (though we could put a crossbow in for home defense and we are looking, inside the home, at nearly even weapons in that area) Portability goes to HAND GUNS, not all guns because lets face it a rifle isn't exactly portable, and then possible knives after that. Ease of use, in home defense which is decidedly middle to short range, falls to the gun again. It doesn't matter if I can't hit a target 3 yards away, I can hit one 5 feet away without trouble.

JD hit on the major aspect about why we don't like guns. Because the truth of the matter is they lend their incredible killing strength and power to both individuals when armed with one. It doesn't matter if your 20 years old, 5'10", 180lbs of all muscle and can run a triathlon a day and not get winded. When you square off in close range gun to gun the person firing first wins. Generally because if we are being honest after that first shot several more are LIKELY TO FOLLOW. So even if the first wasn't a killing blow you can bet some odds that the next 5 - 25 (depending on magazine size) are going to be. This removes a crucial element in the psychology of combat, the belief that you can win if you just give it your all. The honest truth is giving it your all in a gun vs gun fight makes no difference at all, the only thing that matters is shooting first. This is disruptive, almost offensive, to the sensibilities of a trained melee combatant because it goes against everything they train for.

Now, putting that all aside a gun does have a couple weaknesses which is why in modern military warfare our soldiers are still carrying knives, bayonets, and learning to fight hand to hand.

#1) A gun must be aimed, during a surprise encounter even holding the worlds smallest gun doesn't make it any easier to aim and fire. In fact depending on how big the surprise is holding the gun might slow down your reaction time. Your brain shifts gears between combat modes and while we'd all like to think "I'd just whack him with the barrel in the nose" we can't all say for certain we'd do that unless we've trained to use the gun in a melee context at extremely close range.

#2) A gun has an ammo limit. In modern warfare a soldier can carry quite a bit of ammunition, and in home defense this isn't a major problem unless you live in a zombie Apocalypse waste land (some humor there). So a soldier is trained to fight without ammo, or to fight with other weapons instead of their gun to conserve ammo in certain situations. From a home defense standpoint this doesn't matter but it does show why the fighting knife, bayonet, and staff fighting (see bayonet) techniques are still employed in modern warfare training.

#3) A gun must be present. This one is the biggest reason for having a well rounded combat skill development in a person. Because even the most gun happy, ammo totin, rootin tootin hombre is going to set his gun down eventually. When that gun isn't around it's power and ability, much like a sword or sticks, is non-existent. A good hand to hand skill is useful as well as training in smaller weapons that may be supplemented by nearby alternative weaponry (a glass beer bottle, a pool stick, etc). Likewise the gun may not be accessible in some situations or it may just be a bad idea to go firing while in a crowded room. Again this doesn't cover "in home defense" AS MUCH but it's still a consideration.

Is the gun the superior weapon of the modern day? Undoubtedly.

Is it still a GOOD IDEA to have a range of skills available for your home defense? Undoubtedly.

[RyuJin]

well put, which is why my first response at the very beginning of this thread was having a well trained mind, it allows you to assess the situation quickly, make a decision wisely, and react accordingly, whether by melee, or firearm, or simply by outwitting...

at the same time another con of a gun for home defense is: you can't see through walls, what if a family member is on the other side of the wall when you miss...my dad almost shot my mom by accident because she was on the other side of the wall when he was cleaning his pistol...he pulled the clip but forgot to clear the chamber(a very common mistake by novice's). while he was cleaning he bumped the trigger and it fired...the round missed her by inches....a few years later my little brother broke into my dads gun safe and got the gun and almost shot my sister by accident...accidents like these don't happen as easily with a sword or staff...

i'm not anti-gun i've owned several myself, i'm just a bit overly cautious about thier usage....

[Mindas Arran]

A sword, on the other hand, generally requires a more drawn out exchange of skill which allows the random variables to be negated and the training and talent to show through more clearly in the outcome.
The longer an exchange lasts, the more opportunity you give Murphy's Law to play itself. Loose footing, sweat in your eye, a missed defesive parry, overextended, ect. Any engagement, h2h or otherwise should come to conclusion as quickly and effectively as possible. Of course, the "effective" will always depend on the situation.

...accidents like these don't happen as easily with a sword or staff...
Don't they? How many people have cut themselves in the kitchen? On swordforum.net a few years back a guy doing live blade training performed his noto... but into his arm instead of the saya. He almost died from blood loss. And "staff" accidents have been happening since the dawn of time. Kids have an innate ability to thwack each other with sticks. haha

I keep making posts with a pro-gun slant, so I want to clarify -- I'm NOT saying it's the only choice, and in some circumstances it won't be the most effective tool for the job (a rowdy uncle at a housewarming party, for instance). All I'm saying is that it has it's place in a warrior's arsenal, and given the scenario of home defense, you'd be hard-pressed to find something better suited or more cost effective than a shotgun.

As far as skillful vs. not skillful, crude vs. sophisticated, and similar arguments... High level iaidoka are likely more skillful than a farmer with a shotgun. Obviously, the metallurgy, balance, and blade harmonics are more sophisticated in a high end katana than in some guys saddle gun. At the same time, priorities. Safety of family against intruders > a skillful display of technique. Safety of family against intruders > a sophisticated weapon with graceful and sleek lines. It's like the Spirit Shield says, "Sometimes survival must outweigh all other considerations", to which I add, "That "sometimes" is always".

:sHa_thumb:

[Moonshadow]

Here's a recent incident (http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2009-09-16/news/0909150076_1_samurai-sword-samurai-weapon-pontolillo) in Baltimore that demonstrates that a sword can be just as deadly as a gun. I feel that any weapon should be treated with caution and respect, and that a weapon's effectiveness depends greatly on the person wielding it and the situation at hand.

--Moonshadow

[RyuJin]

in the right hands or with considerable luck, a rock or shoelace can be as fatal as a gun or sword...from the account description he shouldn't be charged....but good liars..uh i mean lawyers can make even the innocent look guilty

[Charles]

All I'm saying is that it has it's place in a warrior's arsenal, and given the scenario of home defense, you'd be hard-pressed to find something better suited or more cost effective than a shotgun.

Amen there, the shotgun is the sword of the common man in this day and age. It's easily wielded, it's got fair range for home defense, it's capable, and it evens up the odds in a conflict.

As for your rowdy uncle, you saying you think a Katana is a "better" choice in that situation ? haha (you know I'm razzing you on that one)

[RyuJin]

something effective for defence that i don't recall seeing in this thread yet....mace, pepper spray, tazer, and stun guns....all of them effective(though some people are immune to mace and/or pepper spray)

[Charles]

I was waiting to see if anyone else would think up Tazer haha.

[RyuJin]

lol....their standard issue for all the police in florida now....

in bud k you can get stun guns at pretty good prices they even have 900,000 volt stun knuckles...bet they hurt quite a bit...the force of the punch plus 900,000 volts of electricity zipping through...ouch...

[Inari]

I agree that the student in Moonshadow's article should not be charged, at least from the information given in the article. In some ways, the offender was almost asking to be killed at some point...29 convictions for robbery in a country where so many people keep weapons for defense? I'm actually a little surprised he made it that far.

I did mention the kubatan early on in this thread, is anyone else familiar with these? (though it's been so long since I used one I have forgotten most of it)

[stancheung75]

I agree that the student in Moonshadow's article should not be charged, at least from the information given in the article. In some ways, the offender was almost asking to be killed at some point...29 convictions for robbery in a country where so many people keep weapons for defense? I'm actually a little surprised he made it that far.

I did mention the kubatan early on in this thread, is anyone else familiar with these? (though it's been so long since I used one I have forgotten most of it)

don't worry the moves are so basic you'll pick it back up in no time.

I have a thread (http://www.jediresourcecenter.org/vb/showthread.php?t=245) about using the keys for self defense and a reply about the kubotan.

[stancheung75]

I really have nothing to say here. I just wanted to be number 100. :p

[RyuJin]

rofl...

[Charles]

Kubotan is a good carry all, and a nice non-lethal defensive strategy. I wonder what arguments can be made pro gun vs tazer. I'm at a loss on that one. I know the gun has better "long term" stopping power but lets face it your not exactly planning to sit down for a cup of tea with the attacker so how long do you need to stop them? If it's a line projectile tazer it's got fair to good range. I'd need some info about weather or not clothes of a certain kind could stop a tazer. I have a coat with a good plastic coating that might work so that may be an issue with stopping power. I think a Kubotan would run into something similar with thick enough clothing. On the other hand you gotta question if someone is going to be dressed in 5 layers of clothing robbing your house to begin with.

Maybe now the question is, why did the Tazer get so over-looked. Is it a deep need for "revenge" against the intruder or something more practical. Mind you I have nothing against revenge, any man who's home defense systems consist of heavy metal objects that are sharp or pointy has no room to talk haha, but it's an interesting psychological question.

[RyuJin]

maybe up north in the winter they might wear 5 layers while robbing a house...some of the newer tazers are effective even if the perpetrator is wearing a leather coat...

[Kitsu Tails]

I wonder what arguments can be made pro gun vs tazer. I'm at a loss on that one.

How about the fact that if the guy being tazered touches you during the process.... you get tazered as well?

[RyuJin]

ah, that is why you're suppose to be at a good distance from them when you shoot, and although some people are strong enough to resist the shock, their muscles will still be difficult to move which gives you the advantage of full mobility

[Mindas Arran]

ah, that is why you're suppose to be at a good distance from them when you shoot, and although some people are strong enough to resist the shock, their muscles will still be difficult to move which gives you the advantage of full mobility
You suggested taser knuckles, which is what she rebutting, I think.

The reason I'd not go with a taser is simple. Handheld devices are as debilitating to the user as the one it's used on. As Kit pointed out, if you taser someone who is touching you, you taser yourself. Ranged tasers generally have one shot, two at most (that I've seen) so if you miss your first shot you're left with nothing. In the instance that the intruder has an accomplice, you're likewise SOL. Too bad they don't make a self contained "taser round" or something similar. Some type of pistol or carbine that has multiple shots, loads via magazine, ect. That really would be a useful home defense tool.

[jdmcowan]

They do make a self-contained "taser round". I've seen them demonstrated. They are for shotguns and have a 100ft range (they don't fly as well as a regular bullet, so they loose accuracy quickly). They have a self-contained power unit and the whole thing electrifies so if the target attempts to remove it they make an even bigger circuit. I think they cost about $100 ea.

http://www.taser.com/products/law/Pages/TASERXREP.aspx

Jeremy

[Mindas Arran]

Well, blow me down! :D

Is it available to civilians or only law enforcement? You'd think they'd prefer a civilian with a nonlethal round to a 00 slug, but I can't tell from the website. Nasty looking round though!

[jdmcowan]

I think they are for sale to the public. The "legal" link has a "citizen" warning and instruction page. I've been checking out the sight too. I didn't know they had designed a shotgun which could take these rounds, but not a standard round. I wonder if that's legal in Chicago.

Jeremy

P.S. More looking on the legal page shows that it's not legal for citizens in Michigan to have any kind of stun gun. JC

[RyuJin]

some tazer pistols can fire multiple rounds by changing the power pack thingy at the end from the demo's i've seen they change pretty quickly and continue to stun once removed from the gun...i saw the shotgun rounds a while back, even seen them used on a reality show somewhere

[Charles]

You know, I was reading up on tazer's http://reviews.ebay.com/Complete-Guide-to-Stun-Guns-How-They-Work-amp-More_W0QQugidZ10000000004692806 I don't know how accurate the article is but it seems to imply you will not be shocked if the assailent is holding onto you. I'm sure if they turn the weapon on you and hit the button you will be shocked but if they take a gun off you the same problem is likely.

Sadly Mindas, you still can't have on in MI nor can I have on in MD, but I can carry my warhammer with me so that makes up for it I guess.

[RyuJin]

ouch....going thor on an assailant...

[Charles]

Darn right hahaha, now to see if I can legally make a tazer hammer.

[SilverMoonfire]

In my case it would have to be a short broad sword, to me the sword of truth is dubble edged; i would rather take off the limb of an intruder in my home, then the head of the R.C.M.P lol just joking; but life is duble sided, reaction to equal reaction nuf said hehehehehe.

[Myrrden]

Since I've got a wide array of weapons at home, it's kind of hard to say which one is the best, because different situations require different levels of force. But, there are a few that I keep handy for general use...

Belt Knife - 4 to 6 inches long, depending on the mood I'm in.

Machete - Legal to carry around in most cases, doesn't get the same strange looks as a sword does, easier to replace than a sword if damaged, but can be used in the same sword fighting methods I learned without any alteration.

4 Pound Short Handled Sledge Hammer - Easy to carry on a belt, no one wants to be hit with it, and it'll do its fair share of damage in a fight, especially when combined with the Machete.

My Stave - 6 foot tall, found hardwood branch, topped with a 3 point deer antler which is fiberglass and epoxied on, then wrapped and bound with twine. In a fight, this thing would do some serious damage, it can be used as a regular stave or in a manner similar to a pole axe, using the deer antler points as a weapon.

.22 Long Rifle - Fairly accurate, is threatening to intruders, and is easy to load.

.410 Single Shot Shotgun - Easy to shoot in tight quarters, will effectively clear a hallway, extremely easy to reload, requires very little skill to aim and shoot, easily scares off intruders because a shot from that could cause serious injury.

.410 / 45 Combo Single Shot - Short stock and barrel, easy to reload, shoots two types of ammo, will effectively clear a hallway, can be used as a longer ranged rifle that'll blow a hole through an opponent. Ammo can be stored in the stock.

12 Gauge 3-Shot Shotgun - Works from further away than the .410, does everything they will but with more damage and more kick. Requires more skill and experience to use than the .410 though.

AK-47 - Definite stopping power, semi-automatic so it shoots as fast as you can pull the trigger, magazines hold up to 30 rounds each, 60 when two are strapped together in opposing directions. No one wants to be shot with an AK, so they generally flee upon sight.

[Zaron]

nice list :) wow!!!

[RyuJin]

you know you can pull out the stopper pin in the 12 guage to fit 5 rounds instead of 3 right?...or they also sell 7 round clips for shotguns

[Myrrden]

I've thought about buying a clip for it, if for nothing other than carrying a few more rounds... just in case. Personally, I prefer the single shots better, but in a crisis, it'd be nice to be able to pop out a few rounds.

[jdmcowan]

Darn right hahaha, now to see if I can legally make a tazer hammer.

Now that would make a good hammer for a follower of Thor!

[RyuJin]

bud k now has stun batons with stun knuckles attached providing 4 points of stun contact( the tip, the sides, the knuckles....1mil volts...)

[Charles]

No doubt JD, and I bet you the shock, pun intended, of something like that hitting a perpetrator when they expected JUST an impact would get their attention!

[Master Alex Winward]

i personally, perfer a sword, as it is the weapon i've spent most o my life trainin with an feel the most comfortable with, but in terms o weapons, any an everything i see can be a potential weapon, but *holds up a hand forged norman medieval sword by Darksword Armory*the ol gurl hasn't let me down yet

[Mindas Arran]

I've got/had a couple of DSA's blades. Right now I've got their Black Knight set (I'm reworking the handle). I used to have their Elven Blade set too, but I sold it. I kinda wish I hadn't because the blades really were beautiful.

[Dav Kenso]

One thing I have not heard on the carry weapons, The plastic knives. They would be concealable and would not go off in the metal detector so the could be carried anywhere as long as you left it concealed.

I have heard a lot about stunning, incapacitating, or other such. If someone comes into my house in the middle of the night their reward for their hard work will be 3 shots center of mass. They are thieves and do not deserve the energy it would take to try to keep them alive. Saves tax payer money on trials and it absolutly assures that they never break into my house or any house again. I would be protecting my family, myself and anyone who might be a later victim. How mad would you be if someone broke into your house and hurt your family, only to find out that someone 3 years earlier had pulled a gun on him and let him apoligize and walk away?

The symbol of the Jedi is something I have thought a lot about. We can not come up with a symbol unless it is something like a ring or pendant that only other Jedi would know. Like a freemasons ring, when a mason sees it they know they are dealing with a mason. I believe we need one as a Jedi. Then when we see one we could go make a new friend. The problem is that Jedi are not real.....Yet. We do not have any kind of offline presence other than a few gatherings a weekend at a time. Just a quick point, the lightsaber worked as a symbol of the Jedi is because people all over the galaxy had seen it used. And if they didn't they had heard stories. It probably took centuries for the saber to be a symbol. All Jedi had the same training and the same thought process for the most part. People knew what to expect from them. Modern day Jedi are nowhere near that point, just read this thread. Some are pro gun, some hate them. I don't see how anyone can argue the practicality of the hand gun. If you have a gun at the worst you are even with your enemy. I love the idea of the baton in the saber hilt, just awsome, really.

I will assume we have all seen the Star Wars movies. How did Yoda describe the Jedi? It takes the most serious mind, the deepest commitment. I am wondering if anyone here has that commitment? I understand that we all have families. And that those same faimlies may frown on the idea of us becomming real Jedi instead of making a career and home for ourselves. That is what I am asking, are you willing to endure the dirty looks at Christmas dinner or the not being invited in the first place? If the Jedi are to have any chance in the real world we have to break off and work on becomming real Jedi. Once we do that we can introduce ourselves to the world. I know the question most are asking "who is this guy and why hasn't he done it." No one person can do it on their own. If anyone would like to do this let me know. We can talk ideas and make it happen.

One last thing about the intruder...Do the Jedi take Sith or Clone troops for that matter into custody or do they make sure they harm no other by killing them? Could Yoda not have disarmed the 2 troopers on Kashyyk? No he took their heads off.

Sorry talk about soapboxes. I'll stop now.

MTFBWY

Dav Kenso

[RyuJin]

good points, i'm not anti gun as i've owned a few and have had to use them a few times.

thanks about the baton/saber combo, i'v actually got most of what i need to actually put it together now. i still need the housing but have everything else. also need time and space to work on completing it....that and a few internal components i have to design and make (propietary since i can't find them already made anywhere).

as to being able to bear the looks and taunts of people...i do that already and yet on the college campus nobody cares when i mention being jedi...just shows that college creates people much more open minded....i've been fortunate to have an immediate family focused on being happy with whatever we choose and not on greed/gain...

also good point about yoda on kashyyk....i'm ex military so i'm a bit more open to "expendable assets" and "collateral damage" than most...especially having been told during specops training that we were expendable assets...

[Macgilleon]

Well Personally I don't much care for guns except for hunting(as a Canadian we don't generally have much use for them) and that is from a professional soldier and marksman. I much rather IF the situation warrants physical interaction use alternate means such as hands and feet or if it comes to it my trusty grohmann #3...

Although, I tend to find myself in situations that more often than not can be resolved with words and it's often quite fun to completely disarm someone with a simple phrase and watch them stand there so confused that your next step is to explain why they're a moron in blue crayon pictures.

As far as it goes I believe that we should hold ourselves as keepers of the peace and serve our fellow citizens by avoiding aggression unless it is absolutely necessary to defend someone that is in true need, because one thing that we must do is keep from being seen as vigilantes.

Ref a Jedi symbol I do fully agree that we do need to find something that allows us to both easily identify each other as Jedi, as well as to show that we are proud of our decision to follow this path and not be ashamed to show our selves to the public. However what needs to be done is a committee of the Leaders of the Jedi must be formed to decide internationally what that symbol might be.

[Master Alex Winward]

my opinion in terms o symbols....simply werks, our actions as defined by our mandate as "guardians o peace an justice" speak fer us.

[Ro-Ha Til'leto]

The symbol of the Jedi is something I have thought a lot about. We can not come up with a symbol unless it is something like a ring or pendant that only other Jedi would know. Like a freemasons ring, when a mason sees it they know they are dealing with a mason. I believe we need one as a Jedi.

Not to derail but I came across this site some time ago:

http://www.allneedfulthingsstore.com/jedi-knight-ring-star-wars-sterling-silver-jewelry-p-101.html

Has anyone purchased from here before?