Jedi Realism / Jediism Symbol

[Myrrden]

Ok, here goes... the past couple of weeks I've been talking to some of the older Jedi, especially those who were around during Jediism or even earlier. We've discussed the need for the Jedi to finally start working together, even with our differences, and to start making a difference. Every single group out there has a logo, something they've come up with to distinguish themselves on the net. However, there's yet to be a universal symbol for Jedi Realists. So, I set out to design something that could work. I've had input from many people and this is the final design that came out of it. Bear in mind that this was done in Windows Paint and done to have a realistic, reflective effect to it. I'll be working on a plain, primary color version of it, as well as a plain version of the Jedi symbol in the center.

The idea is to have a symbol that's free from any one certain website, group, culture or religion that all Jedi could use.

Aimee asked me to post a copy of it here and to put up a poll for it. Please, let me know what you think of it. Here are the copies with the white and black backgrounds. Feel free to redistribute them.

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs153.snc3/18059_1251003149311_1056452778_30844969_3396549_n. jpg http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs153.snc3/18059_1251084871354_1056452778_30845187_2483_n.jpg

Here's the simple explanation... The silver square is physical, the gold circle is spiritual (the Force), everything in the middle is us (specifically the sun) which has a slight spin (in this detailed version) if you look close enough like the yin/yang. It's all intertwined that so you can't remove anything without breaking something.

And, since it's a modification of the Jedi symbol, we shouldn't have to worry about Lucas or any lawsuits, as it's an original design based on two existing designs, changed 50% from both originals. But, it's still quickly recognizable.

[Moonshadow]

Just to clarify, are you asking if this symbol should replace all the individual sites' separate logos, or if this symbol should be used in addition to each site's logo to represent the Jedi Realists as a whole?

Btw, the artwork is beautiful! You did a great job with it!

--Moonshadow

[Mindas Arran]

I voted "no opinion" since I'm not really a Jedi or anything, but still, if you're going to have a symbol you could do a lot worse than adopt that one. You did a great job on the design.

:sHa_thumb:

[RyuJin]

if used in conjunction with the symbol of other sites i don't see why they wouldn't use it.
they would have their symbol representing the individual order, then could use this one to show affiliation with others.

the white background i think would work best since it shows only the symbol, although the black background lends itself well to patches

[Kitsu Tails]

Who were these older Jedi from Jediism? out of curiosity? we were just talking about old friends from that site over at the JRC Facebook page :-p Mabey they are some of the ones listed?

As for the symbol... Eh... Honestly Im not a big fan of the "Altered Republic Logo" being used as the Online Jedi Logo as a whole. But that's just me.

[Andy]

I like it.

1.) It has symbolic meaning
2.) It does not use culture specific imagery like kanji or yin yangs
3.) It does not use the fictional star wars language.
4.) It resembles the jedi emblem but is free of fictional things like light sabers and such.

[Myrrden]

Just to clarify, are you asking if this symbol should replace all the individual sites' separate logos, or if this symbol should be used in addition to each site's logo to represent the Jedi Realists as a whole?

Actually, that'd be up to the individual group. The goal is for something to represent us all as a whole, not as individual groups. Everyone has a desire to show their independence, but the way I'm imagining it, as Adona said, "It's like having the nation's flag and then individual state flags." So, every group has it's own logo, but there's nothing that would be equal to us having a universal symbol to be used in conjunction with that.

Btw, the artwork is beautiful! You did a great job with it!

You did a great job on the design.

Thanks! :D

if used in conjunction with the symbol of other sites i don't see why they wouldn't use it.
they would have their symbol representing the individual order, then could use this one to show affiliation with others.

Yup, that's the idea. Just something to start breaking down the barriers between the groups that have been built over the years.

the white background i think would work best since it shows only the symbol, although the black background lends itself well to patches

Actually, it was originally done with the white background, but my website has a black wallpaper, so I went back and filled it in black for those pages.

Who were these older Jedi from Jediism? out of curiosity? we were just talking about old friends from that site over at the JRC Facebook page :-p Mabey they are some of the ones listed?

Andy, Sapharin, Adona Mara, Icarus, Jax, and others. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to track down anyone on that list yet. If I do, I'll be letting people know about it. :)

As for the symbol... Eh... Honestly Im not a big fan of the "Altered Republic Logo" being used as the Online Jedi Logo as a whole. But that's just me.

If you've got any ideas for replacing that, let me know. We can't use the one created for the fiction legally, because Lucas owns the rights to it and does love to file lawsuits when he thinks someone might be making any money off of it, regardless if they are or not. I'm not deadset against changing it, that was just the result of discussing the need for something that was recognizable, but legal.

[Kitsu Tails]

I personaly thought the Logo created by Relan and show cased at the Jedi Philosophy site was simple enough. Not saying that your logo there is bad, its fancy and well done...I just never did like the Republic symbol being brought over, altered, and made as the Online Jedi symbol it just seems....over used...

Also just to point out for friendly conversation sake....a universal symbol to represent all Jedi has been tried many times before, and is nothing new. In fact the Jedi Philosophy site I just mentioned has a similar article ::here:: (http://www.jediphilosophy.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=216:symbol-of-the-jedi&catid=44:miscellaneous&Itemid=153)

[Myrrden]

Could those of you who voted no at least give some input as to why you voted no? How else are we to know why someone's against something if we don't get input?

[Myrrden]

I've seen more than a few attempts by someone to create a universal symbol before and I've seen all of those shot down. I don't remember seeing that symbol that Relan created, but after seeing it, I do wonder why nothing came about from it. Here's just one theory, and it's only my theory, but that page you directed me to probably reveals the answer to the question. In it, it says,

"The symbol above is what should be adopted as a universal symbol for the Jedi, as it signifies all that a Jedi should strive to be, do, and understand. In it is shown the very nature of the Force itself. The symbol itself was given to me in a vision almost 10 years ago, and I have spent this time devising what exactly this symbol meant to myself and to the Jedi."

If we examine that first sentence, we can see why various groups wouldn't support it. I know that at one time I'd have shot it down, regardless of the design, simply because of that one sentence.

First, he says that it "should be adopted", essentially read by the reader that it "must be adopted". There's little room for improvement there, as it's basically saying that the symbol itself is finished and complete.

Second, he's saying that it "signifies all that a Jedi should strive to be, do, and understand." This statement itself would always be open for argument by the various groups, because no one has completely agreed on any of those three points. So, saying that it signifies them specifically, is to say that these things have been settled universally, which after decades, still isn't true.

Third, he says that it was given to him in a vision and that he has devised what it meant to himself and the Jedi. This alone shows that there wasn't any form of cooperation in the creation of the symbol. People like to have input, especially if something is going to include them.

These are all things that have been done in the past. Usually, it's a specific website or group trying to push their own symbol on others, that way it makes them look like they were the website that started it all. That may not truly be their intention, but it's the way that it's interpreted.

What makes my idea different? I'm asking for input from as many people as I can find. I'm trying to work in the different ideas as best as possible. Some, simply don't fit into it very well, no matter how I try to lay it out, but if someone could figure out how to make it fit and show me, then I'd gladly rework the design. I'm not asking people to not alter it for their personal use, because individuality is something that's so well ingrained in humans that we can't separate it from ourselves. I've already reworked the design, by changing the center, to be state specific for Texas and Florida. For those, people say they love the designs, but for the universal symbol, the main complaint has been the design in the very center. That design was something that I came up with, because people seemed to say that the symbol was one they could quickly related to. Though, as you said, it has been overused. Still, if anyone has any ideas for a different logo, let me know and I'll gladly do up another version for people to check out. The more people who cooperate in something, the more accepted it will be.

That so you can see an example of what I'm talking about, here are the Florida and Texas designs at this point...

http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs153.snc3/18059_1251002909305_1056452778_30844968_8386071_s. jpg http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs133.snc3/18059_1250842025283_1056452778_30844531_3774444_s. jpg

[Kitsu Tails]

Well :) I never said that I agreed with the author of that article or the logo he provided. I was simply pointing out that this has been discussed a number of times before... That article was just the first one I found without having to dig through all of the old/dead sites out there. (Found it by accident while pulling up Relans Logo to be sure I was talking about the right one)

As I said before, I found Relans logo to be simple enough. (Which is the one at the top of the Jedi Philosophy site...not the half moon shaped one in the article) And while your last two pictures there with the Texas and Florida looks very nice... It is not Individual. Again I'm not saying it looks bad, But....I would never put Just Jedi's logo in there because then it wouldn't be Just Jedi's logo...It would be Just Jedi's logo within someone Else's :)

Again I'm not trying to be difficult, just providing friendly criticism for sake of conversation.

[Myrrden]

Conversation is what it's up there for. A good majority of us feel that it's time for some sort of unity between the groups, without trying to force others to have to change in order to fit into being a Jedi. The idea isn't dissimilar from the Christian Cross or the Pagan Pentacle... they're both a general design that has been modified over the years by individual groups to distinguish them, but they're still easily recognizable as being Christian or Pagan. The Florida and Texas designs aren't meant to be representative of individual groups, but of states. I'm not asking anyone to change their group's logo, because that would be foolish. Instead, I'm looking for criticism and suggestions on making a universal symbol for Jedi.

The idea is to get some common ground out there, something that shows that we're Jedi to other Jedi, or just other people. Having a multitude of symbols doesn't do that, unless someone's willing to go through and compile them all into a file that can be easily found. Even then, it still wouldn't be something you'd look at on the street and say, "Hey, that's a Jedi!" unless you were more familiar with it. You wouldn't recognize my own symbol anymore than I'd recognize yours from Just Jedi (as I've never seen it). However, if you see a cross or pentacle, you know what it means.

As for the symbol at Jedi Philosophy... the triangle in the circle is also the logo for Alcoholics Anonymous. That's why I discarded the design I had come up with years ago for a site. Granted, it'd be far easier to buy jewelry with this symbol on it, as it's easy available online, I personally wouldn't want to have to tell people, "No, it's Jedi, not AA." :sHa_hehe:

Let's face it, if we wanted something simple and easy to reproduce, which didn't violate any laws, we could always go with this...

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs153.snc3/18059_1251507921930_1056452778_30846261_104131_n.j pg

... but, we'd have to get people to approve of it and be willing to use it to show unity.

*edit* - Upon looking at this one a second time, turned 90 degrees to the right, it'd look like a cup with a straw or something coming out of it. I guess if secrecy were key, that would work, because it could always be ice cream or coffee. lol

[RyuJin]

having seen the state designs gave me an idea....using the individual order symbol in the center...then each order has their symbol displayed and they all have the outer portion, which links them all together

[Myrrden]

Ryu, since the most common thing I hear is wrong with it is the logo in the very center, then I think that may be a good way to go. It'd still be easily recognizable for everyone when they saw the outer rings, which would show unity, but individuality could still be maintained if they used the inner circle to represent them.

... Not saying that the symbols they already have would be invalid, but that would be an option for using it. The Texas Jedi Realists on Facebook just put up the Texas version. So, I believe people are open to the idea of using it, but no one can agree on a universal one, other than the outer rings. A lot of people like it with the sun in the center, but still feel that it needs some sort of image overlayed on it.

Since you're in Florida, what do you think of the Florida version? I'm a native Floridian, so I went with what my wife and I felt best represented the state.

[Mindas Arran]

Those state patches are really nice too.... Almost enough that you could get rid of the aforementioned republic symbol and just keep the rest. Heck, at this rate I'mma have to change my answer to yes! :P

[Myrrden]

Mindas, that's really the point that I'm getting to now. Trying to come up with some variation of the Republic symbol or something that would equally stand out is becoming just a pain. Given enough time, I could probably come up with some more state symbols. If I've got time today I'm going to work on a larger version of the general symbol, that way it could be modified more by others.

Would anyone disagree with just leaving the sun in the center or a red circle for the plain color? It seems that the one thing we truly have in common, aside from Jedi and the Force, is the sun, which is necessary to life on earth.

[Zaron]

this is cool I love it we need a unified symbol and these might be them who knows

[Moonshadow]

Thanks for the clarification, Ben.

As for talk of removing the republic symbol, I actually think it's important that the symbol have some sort of quality that automatically makes people think of the Jedi without running into issues with copyrights or presenting ourselves as fans rather than realists. If you just see the square and rings, it looks beautiful, but an outsider looking at it wouldn't really associate that with Jedi realists in any way. On the other hand, the elegance of the symbol and the variation from the fictional version give it more credibility than just a fan icon. Not saying the symbol needs a variation of the republic sign in there, but it does need something that means "Jedi."

--Moonshadow

[Zaron]

like what though Moonshadow? Just want the conversation to keep moving. I like it the way it is but you do have a point.

[Kitsu Tails]

Maybe it's just me and my 'geeky' love of Star Wars Role Play :-p But when I see that symbol I don't think "Jedi" I think "Republic" because it IS a republic logo...not Jedi - You know...clone troopers, tie fighters, battle droids and such? Just sayin...

[Mindas Arran]

Here's your nerd crown, Kit. :p

[RyuJin]

the florida one was good...maybe add a gators logo to it :D

[Moonshadow]

like what though Moonshadow? Just want the conversation to keep moving. I like it the way it is but you do have a point.

No idea. Which is why I'm not the one creating a Jedi Realist symbol. :p My only criteria for a symbol are the following:

1) The symbol contains something that people would automatically associate with Jedi.
2) The symbol is professional enough to portray us as something other than simply Star Wars fans.
3) The symbol's design contains elements that represent the actual aspects of the Jedi Realist path.
4) The symbol does not contain any elements that are directly associated with existing religions or other groups.

I think the symbol that Ben came up with actually meets all of those criteria. I haven't voted yet, because it's only really something I'd adopt if there was universal support for it, otherwise it just serves as another division. So I'd like to see where the Community-wide conversation goes before taking any kind of official stance.

As for the symbol being more "Republic" than "Jedi," Kit may have a point. I always kind of fast-forwarded and skimmed through all the Republic politic type stuff to get to the pure Jedi stuff, so I don't really know. :p Maybe we could have a picture of a version of the Jedi Temple instead. That would also be a great symbol of unification in general since we always talk about one day creating a unified real world temple.

--Moonshadow

[Kitsu Tails]

I always kind of fast-forwarded and skimmed through all the Republic politic type stuff to get to the pure Jedi stuff, so I don't really know. :p

Don't have to watch the movies to know :) type "New Republic logo" (http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/0/02/Logo_New_Republic.JPG) into your search engine, see what comes up :sHa_thumb:

If you want something Fictional Jedi Related but not so fictional....I would say go with either

A: A Jedi Holocron - Not the pyramid shape kind as those are sith.... Something similar to my avatar on my fav. RP board ((This IS A copy right image soz best alter if used))

http://cdn-www.swtor.com/sites/all/files/avatars/avatar50.gif

B: A Lightsaber - Like it or not....a lightsaber IS the symbol/easily recognized logo of the Jedi.

C: A Crystal of sorts - Keeps to the Lightsaber idea without it being lightsaber...also works in unison to the crystal code

The crystal is the heart of the blade. The heart is the crystal of the Jedi. The Jedi is the crystal of the Force. The Force is the blade of the heart. All are intertwined. The crystal, the blade, the Jedi. You are one.

Only problem is, a crystal is kinda hard to put in image format.... * I rather liked this image for a crystal....

http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/a7f350f296334d77a845fd8eb5c32229c1f3847.jpg






Just my 2 credits :sHa_thumb:

[Myrrden]

I've actually been messing around with adding a Holocron to it. When I get some more time I'll see what all I can do and I'll post it.

Personally, I don't like the idea of lightsabers, because they relate too much to just being a fan.

[Zaron]

plus lightsabers are also used by the sith. Let us not forget what happened in the U.K. "darth vader daeth vader." Do we really want people to think lightsaber and then think "oh no they are sith let's not listen to them". And even if the color is a jedi one diffrent jedi use jedi colors such as flesh vader. Sorry people I hate playing the devil's advacote but someone has to.

[RyuJin]

rofl them guys in the u.k. ....they do have a tendency to draw alot of negative publicity...it's unfortunate, since they have a talent for publicity which could be useful...in the right hands(not mine as i tend to keep to the shadows)

[Moonshadow]

Don't have to watch the movies to know type "New Republic logo" into your search engine, see what comes up

I know what the Republic logo looks like, just never really cared much about it one way or the other, so I don't have the same rub with it being associated with role play. I just associate it with Star Wars and the Jedi in general.

--Moonshadow

[AstaSophi]

Recognizing I made this on Windows Paint in about 5 minutes - I just thought I'd throw it out here to say that sometimes symbolism can be simple shapes and colors that have meaning rather than more literative symbology?

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g27/DoodlesUS/JediSymbol.jpg

I think most would get the idea of "Jedi" - and perhaps wonder about the meaning of the "moons" and possibly the shadow...

I am not saying to use this little drawing - because it's my personal view of Jedi. Just an idea of how simple a "logo" can be - and also how easily it can be done and avoid any license/copyright issues?

Otherwise - the original poster has a good eye for design! I like it's looks - but have some of the same concerns as has already been stated.

Just my rather lame little addition... heh...

- Asta

[Manu]

Not to be negative or anything, but those last logos are a bit phallic. :sHa_lol:

Take a look at this site, it has some good tips on logo design: http://www.davidairey.com/what-makes-a-good-logo/

[AstaSophi]

ROFL!!! Oh man - yeah... LOL...

[Myrrden]

Moon, not voting yet because you're waiting to see how others vote, isn't voting your opinion, but popular opinion. :p

[Moonshadow]

Moon, not voting yet because you're waiting to see how others vote, isn't voting your opinion, but popular opinion. :p

The poll question is: "Would you approve of the JRC using this?" So based on the reasons I stated before, that's not a decision I can make right now. If the question was something along the lines of, "Would you approve of this as a possible symbol for Jedi Realists?" that would be another question entirely and something I would probably vote yes for.

--Moonshadow

[RyuJin]

Moon, not voting yet because you're waiting to see how others vote, isn't voting your opinion, but popular opinion. :p

what is popular is not always right, what is right is not always popular...
just wanted to use that since i seen it in a movie :p

[Kitsu Tails]

I know what the Republic logo looks like, just never really cared much about it one way or the other, so I don't have the same rub with it being associated with role play. I just associate it with Star Wars and the Jedi in general.

--Moonshadow

It has nothing to do with Role Play in general. It is associated with star wars and star wars cannon only. I merely mentioned Role Play as a possibility as to why, when I see it, I don't think "Jedi" in the least bit, I think "Republic" As in I was being silly and saying "Hey It could be because I'm a nuthead buuuuuuuut......this is what I think"

[Moonshadow]

Yeah, I think different people are just going to associate the symbol with different things. In fact, most likely the majority of the general public will have absolutely no idea what it means either way, whether star wars, republic, or Jedi. :p

--Moonshadow

[Ander Ro'Sal]

I'm not saying No to be mean, I just think that there are to many different symbols out there and this group beyond many others has the potential to be the roots needed to unite the orders. maybe we should hold of on the symbol for a bit.

[Myrrden]

Here's a question for you though... How long should we hold off on it? The Online Jedi Community has been here for years. I know that I first joined the online community in 1997, but I've considered myself to be a Jedi since at least 1984. And, here we are, 33 years after the first movie came out and as a community we're still less united than most fan clubs are.

[Mindas Arran]

Just out of curiosity, and because I know very little about the fiction and lore of the Jedi... do they actually have an official logo?

[Kitsu Tails]

As far as I know...no. Especially after the clone wars the Jedi weren't trying to announce themselves to the public, they were trying to hide and 'blend in' to be as inconspicuous as possible.

Also the Jedi were about humility not fame or to be recognized, they didn't need or care for a logo, they simply did their duty and moved on.

The closest thing to a logo that the Jedi have are their Lightsabers & Robe's (Although they say the robes were to help blend in >_< ).

[Myrrden]

Actually, they did. It dates back thousands of generations to the Bendu Monks, who would later become known as Jedi Bendu, then simply Jedi. It was then adapted by the Republic Navy throughout the years. You can see a modified version of it on every TIE Fighter in the Empire and Anakin's Starfighter in Revenge of the Sith.

Bendu was a collection of non-confrontational beliefs practiced by the Bendu monks. The symbol of Bendu was a circle connected by eight even spokes, which represented the unification of the galaxy by the Force. Due to their study of numerology, the number eight created by this symbol had great meaning.[1]

Early in its formation, the Galactic Republic had its own symbol, but sometime after the Sith Civil War, they adapted the symbol to represent their own role in galactic unification.

A six-spoked form of the symbol was used by the Republic during the Clone Wars immediately before the rise of the Empire.[2]

The symbol was later the basis for the emblem of the Galactic Empire.

At the end of the Galactic Civil War, the New Republic restored the Old Republic's system government, though with editing of forms to reduce the probability of abuses. The Bendu was reinstated but, due to its similarity to the much-hated Imperial Crest, it was not widely adopted as an official symbol and the Alliance Starbird all but supplanted it.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bendu

Here's the Bendu Symbol... http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/thumb/d/de/Republic_Emblem.svg/120px-Republic_Emblem.svg.png

Here's the Empire's Symbol... http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/thumb/2/2e/Imperial_Emblem.svg/120px-Imperial_Emblem.svg.png

[RyuJin]

interesting

[Brandel Valico]

The closet thing I have ever seen used as an official Jedi symbol would be http://home.comcast.net/~BrandelValico/Images/jocasta3.jpg It's the symbol used on the Council Chamber floor. But if its actually a Jedi Symbol or just a decorative design? Your guess is as good as mine on that.

You also have the Shoulder patch that you only see the Jedi wearing in the new Clone Wars Cartoons This is it.
http://www.starfortressproductions.com/catalog/jedileatheretteshoulderpatch.jpg
It's the only official Jedi only symbol I have ever seen.

You do of course have the Lightsaber as well.

As for the Bendu Symbol No argument against it being used and adjusted. But there is no real link that it was a strictly Jedi Symbol Or for that matter a Bendu Symbol. Though it is a generally fan accepted belief that both are true.

Just a bit of an expansion on this topic.

[RyuJin]

if the top one was a rhorschach picture it looks like an angel with 2 faeries....possibly representing the idealistic "pure spirit" jedi and enlightenment...or maybe i'm just looking too much into it...

[Mindas Arran]

My point is, if there is already a designated symbol, why not just use that? What, it's copyrighted? So is Jedi. If you're going to run with one, you might as well run with the other, right?

[Brandel Valico]

No Argument from me Mindas I actually all ready have the top one I posted (The one from the Council Chamber Floor) as a Tattoo (Got it before the Clone Wars Came out so hadn't seen the other one) I'm considering getting the Shoulder Patch one on the other arm now. Haven't decided.

But anyway your logic is sound. If your going to use the term no point in not using the emblem also. Though legally it may be an issue. The term Jedi isn't of itself Copy protected. It's only protected when used in a way that may interfere with Lucas's cash flow. In the context we use it it's for the most fine. The term is also part of the common Lexicon. The images though are Trademarked which is a different beast. In the legal usage area.

[Myrrden]

Actually, copyright law does not protect names, those are trademarked. If you try to use any symbol that was designed by LucasArts or any related company, and seek to make it official, with the potential to make a profit from it, then you'd be looking at a potential lawsuit from a company with almost unlimited amounts of money and lawyers.

"Jedi" while it was created by Lucas and trademarked, has since appeared in other works which the creators have made a profit from, including the Oxford Dictionary. The use of the word in a title, such as "Jedi Resource Center" should be free of liability, because it's now the same as using McDonalds in something, such as "McDonalds Garage" and being free of infringement. The same wouldn't be true if you tried to use the Golden Arches as your logo. And, even if down the road Lucas wanted to try and stir up trouble, we could always change over to being "Force Realists" on paper and be legally safe. As with Star Trek, there's a group that's legally incorporated called, "Starfleet: The International Fan Club Association".

Aside from that, most people want to separate themselves from simply being fans who are playing Jedi. So, by using something directly out of the fiction, you're essentially grouping yourself with the common fans and RPGers.

[Darth Jediforever!]

Shouldn't we all strive to be as one, under the same purpose and not forgetting our Jedi brothers and sisters. Does not the force itself bind us together under the same flag? The Force is stronger when we fight together. Let us learn from our Jedi Masters and stand together in the Force. Did not Yoda tell Luke "do or do not there is no try" Let us throw aside our differences in opinion and all come together to learn and channel our force gifts to do good and thus fulfill our purpose as the Jedi.

[Mindas Arran]

Although I like the Bendu symbol and also the Jedi symbol from the Clone Wars, I would think that it would be better for the Jedi community in general if the symbol chosen have no link with the movies, role playing, books, or whatever.

The Jedi community is trying to make themselves a legitimate thing. People scoff at people who say they are Jedi because they are thinking it is a fad or that we are role-players or just fans acting like children in a fantasy world. We need to move away from that and I believe that taking on a symbol that is present in the movies, role playing games, books, or what have you is not going to present us as anything but a role-playing, fan oriented bunch of fantasy world lovers.

The term Jedi is already strongly associated with "movies, role playing, books, or what have you" so I'm not sure how having a symbol that reflects that would make any difference whatsoever. As the name itself has connotations of fantasy, logically, the only way for a group to absolve itself completely from that attachment would be to drop the Jedi name entirely.

Conversely, the 501st is fully immersed in the fiction, roleplaying, and fantasy. They do a tremendous amount of charity work, so it is clear legitimacy is not dependent on separation from fiction. As another example, at the '09 Gathering, the campers that we shared the site with were much less concerned with our reality based classes based and much more interested when people brought out robes and sabers which provided an open bridge for interaction between two otherwise dissimilar groups.


The suggested symbol being voted upon, to me, has a lightsaber in it. It is close to the patch worn in the Clone Wars movies, with the object in the center representing a lightsaber. Many who know me know that I don't really approve of things that present the Jedi in a martial way. I believe that the Jedi should be presented as people who are there to give people a hand, not slice off the hand. When the Jedi are presented in a manner in which they are perceived as being martial, that is what the public will think of us as being. We are more than that; at least I hope we are. There are those who are interested in researching the Force. Those interested in healing. Those interested in being Jedi Priest. And so on. So why not move away from having lightsabers in the suggested symbols and go with something like two hands reaching out to each other. That is what I believe that Jedi should be represented as being - a helping hand.
While each individual certainly has their own interpretation as to what is and what is not Jedi, the authoritative source will always be the fiction from whence it originated (for better or worse). We might debate over what is feasible or translatable from fiction to the real world, but the definition itself is constant. You cannot logically say that the works of the person who created "Jedi" in the first place is inaccurate since that is the original and first definition of the word.

Again, not naysaying... just observing.

[Myrrden]

That's the trick isn't it? Picking something that people will agree represents the Jedi, without actually taking something directly from the fiction. I've spread the symbol around and pretty much everyone agrees that the versions representing the states are great. They love the idea of being able to modify the center circle to represent their own group. However, no one seems too sure about what type of symbol to put directly in the center of the universal one. They're just not sure if it's enough to leave it as being red, without something on top of that.

As I've said, ideas and suggestions are needed to improve it.


*Edit*... Kitsu, if we had functional lightsabers that only Jedi had, then I'd agree with you that in the real world that'd be all we needed.

[Myrrden]

So, what type of symbol would you suggest? That's what we're looking for is something that does a good job of representing all Jedi Realists.

[Charles]

You know, for what it's worth I'm going to share some thoughts on this thread since I've avoided it for quite awhile but I think I'll pipe in about now.

First a little background. I was once explaining the Jedi to a friend of mine, the history of the online activity as it's been told to me about things that have happened long before my time, the things I've seen, and the gatherings and all the other stuff. I know my bend on things is that the gatherings are the MOST positive aspect of the whole of it and maybe the last, best, hope for Jedi.

Anyway, during this little tirade I go back to the point and time before Episode I, when the Online Jedi Community was fledgling at best. There is a moment in which I say something like "You know I think ol George sits back reading the forums in his boxers, smoking a cigar, and saying 'How can I throw them off today' when he writes his movies. Things were never UNIFIED but they were less spread out in the beginning." and I then prop my feet up on the chair doing my best cigar impersonation while not having a cigar on hand and saying "Ah there we go, I see they've unified, settled on a few basic things, well I think I can throw a monkey wrench into that one" and he releases Episode I, things go into chaos etc etc. Then a repeat of that for Episode II, and then Episode III usually highlighting the ideas that changed in each episode and the sometimes EXPLOSIVE controversy that would erupt as a result. Finally we got to the Clone Wars Series and I end on the note of "Hmm, you know they are persistent though, maybe I should just put something out I can use to keep things constantly in an uproar in case I see something taking root again."

You know I don't think George does that honestly, but you know what else there is a point behind that little diatribe I do as a kinda stand up comedy joke once in awhile. That is that the Jedi Concept is still in motion even in the fiction. Not only can't we agree on anything, anything we agree on will be changed in the way we are perceived no matter what we do so long as we keep the name. If George has all the Jedi turn villainous for the next 12 seasons of clone wars and the Sith turn into the good guys then that is how people will view us. There is no changing that, and rightly I don't think we should try.

What I'm getting at is you can adhere as much you want, or dislike, to the ideas in the movies, in the novels, in the newer stuff, in the older stuff. You can pick and choose, why not every other religion/belief/spirituality/path/whatever seems to right? So how can we hope to make a symbol for something like this?

The purists, and I've definitely been in that category before, say that "What the Fiction doth say the truth doth be" and we'd likely be happy with a giant stone tablet with the letter J on it. People who are more interpretive of their view will want things differently and you know, after so many years watching this argument circle it's tail I gotta respect their persistence on that even if I don't agree with it all the time.

See everyone see's a different "Core" in the word Jedi. Some look at the actions and ask "what are they doing?" from the point of view of morality, others ask what it is they are doing from the point of view of actions in society, still others ask what it is they are doing as actions alone.

The people looking at the morality see kind helping people who are spiritually grounded going around doing good deeds or, at the least, working toward a goal they believe if good.

The people looking at the actions in society themselves see a mercenary group of force powered Super Soldiers, at least in some of it, enforcing "LAW" at the edge of a blade.

Finally the people looking at the nature of the action see actions consistent with warrior monks. They see an intense training regiment that lead up to the ability to do those actions.

Worse yet, it could be said NONE of that is consistent across various pieces of fiction as we know there are tons of things written, rewritten, canonized, and decanonized yearly. At one point I'd have said the core of a Jedi was the training, much as I'd say the core of the martial artist was the training, but time has a funny thing about it. The older we get the less willing we are to fight for a word.

So, I say now, to accept any symbol, to push for any symbol, to support any symbol is on some level to push for that definition of the word. If the symbol inherently has a sword then we are saying it is the action, or the nature of the action, that is if not the whole of it then at the least a major part. Yet if it lacks a sword we say that it is no part of it and should not be. Any symbol chosen then would be completely unacceptable for if it included any one part, it would then cause it to be seen as a definite. If it did not include a particular part then it would be seen as definitely not including it. Any symbol would therefore be unacceptable to someone in some degree.

After all, the Dark Apprentice shows you can be a "Jedi" just on morality without training, he trains as a Sith and suddenly switches tracks becoming "A Jedi" on the basis of morality. Yet at the same time only Force Sensitives train as Jedi implying some kind of prerequisite ability to hold the title. You never hear of a Jedi who can't use the Force on some level so it's a very spiritual thing. Yet every Jedi has some kind of physical ability and trains, without exception, with some kind of weapon. It's a circle, and a vicious one at that.

More over, no matter what we do next Seasons Clone Wars will change the public view. If you want a symbol, you want an order, you want things your way I say grab a whole bunch of like minded people and DO IT. However none of that will change the public, online, or other views of what a Jedi is. Likewise no interpretation will be 100% complete because honestly the term "Jedi" is a catch all blanket for a specific type of "Force User" in the Star Wars Universe at a given time with the specifics changing from one time frame to another. THAT May be the only definition we can all agree on and even that will be debated.

[Myrrden]

Charles, in order for the Jedi to become united in any way, they're going to have to agree on somethings and disagree on others, but they need to stand together. They need something to represent them and make them easily identifiable.

The Society for Creative Anachronism is a group which studies medieval life. There are heavy weapon fighters, fencers, artisans, etc. Yet, they have a symbol that is used for the entire Society that so when a person sees it, they instantly see a fellow member, someone they know they have some ability to relate with, even if they study Medieval Pottery and the other person studies Heavy Weapons.

Christians use the cross as a symbol, even though the modern cross has a wide variety of shapes and presentations, they're generally shaped like a + or a lower case t, rarely a capital T, which is historically more accurate to what someone would have been crucified on. However, a person can see a cross and know that the other person is a Christian, and sometimes by the presentation of the cross, know their denomination.

Symbols that are used to represent a group of people don't have to display every single aspect of that group. The task of creating something like that would be so daunting that most people would pass out from the concept. More over, actually creating it would be even worse, because so much would have to be included that it would be a jumbled mess when finished, nothing that could be easily identified with.

Keeping that in mind, I decided to make a slight alteration to the symbol. Here's the fully detailed and the cleaner lined Paint version...

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs133.snc3/18059_1255918632195_1056452778_30854263_5474951_n. jpg http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs153.snc3/18059_1255923712322_1056452778_30854264_4862898_n. jpg

[Charles]

Yes but most groups already have their definitions in place, it makes making a symbol much easier if you already know what the symbol must represent. The question is, is there a single thing (like the crucifixion) that is easily identifiable to all Jedi and yet agreeable to be a key part of what it means to be a Jedi?

[Kitsu Tails]

Aaah that's much better mesa thinks ^_^

-------

As a personal...side note....Think you could post up that logo image without anything in the middle? Just the logo with the red stone all nice and pretty like?

[Myrrden]

Those are actually the same symbol, but some people have asked for a simpler version of it to look at. One's just been rendered in full detail using real-life materials... gold, silver, etc. that have a reflective surface. The reason I designed it like that was to show realism, to give people an idea of what it would look like when made into a medallion or other jewelry, etc.

Kitsu, is this what you're looking for?... http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs153.snc3/18059_1250969268464_1056452778_30844901_1686625_n. jpg

[Kitsu Tails]

Yip! Thanks ^_^ I was just curious what the Just Jedi Logo would look like in it :-p doubt it will fit proper but i was curious...what do they say? Curiosity killed the dog? :-p

[Myrrden]

Charles, the meaning of the symbol itself is one thing that I think everyone could agree on. They just have to really see it...

The golden ring is the Force. Surely, we can all identify that the Force is something that's been agreed upon, regardless of individual definitions.

The silver square is the physical world. Representing things like the four seasons, four cardinal directions, etc. All things that we know to be scientifically real, or at least philosophically real.

The inner circle is us, as people. We know that we exist, even if it's only as a figment of someone's dream, for the moment we're here and have individual identities. The inner circle has a revolving state, because life is movement, it is change.

The sun is a vital ingredient of life. Without it, we simply wouldn't exist, and neither would anything else in our solar system.

The four wires binding it all together represent how all of it is one, joined to a point that it's impossible to remove one element without destroying the whole thing.

[Myrrden]

Yip! Thanks ^_^ I was just curious what the Just Jedi Logo would look like in it :-p doubt it will fit proper but i was curious...what do they say? Curiosity killed the dog? :-p

Send me a link to the logo and I'll see what I can do with it. Nothing's impossible until it's been proven so. Managing to not make it fit ten times doesn't mean that it's not possible, it just means that I've proven ten times how not to make it fit.

[AstaSophi]

Another practical aspect to consider is reproducing the "logo" on apparel and other items. The more basic the logo - the better.

This particular logo is fine - I do not know that it should "Jedi" in the center due to trademark, licensing infringement - but what is it's "meaning" in being Jedi Realist?

No offense - but what this logo is right now seems to be a nice "frame". Unless people plan to use the word, "Jedi" and unless the logo is given definition as to what the overlapping shapes mean - how does this portray the generalized "Jedi" that we all share.

It isn't going to be my idea of Jedi, or Myrrden's, or A.R.D.'s, or Kitsu's - it the "general" idea such as the cross is Christian, the Star - Jewish, the fish Evangelical Christian - etc... In other words - what symbol would demarcate the Jedi?

This "logo" may do it - but it has to have some meaning explained behind it for others to understand and feel it's meaning. Or - the symbol has to, in it's design, inherently speak to "The Jedi Realist".

Using a light saber seems divisive - but what about a shield (for protection?), how about a book in a shield for wisdom and knowledge, and perhaps a circle and star or something within that for the more esoteric/spiritual?

I do not mean these exact ideas - but I am one of those people who do like image, and if general, would likely purchase some items just as I create or purchase other items that have meaning for me to "remind" me or comfort me or strengthen me...

Again - just my observation on image/meaning/logos/symbols...

Also - if plain enough - or inclusive enough - other Jedi will feel comfortable adding or incorporating it into their own sites and images.

[Kitsu Tails]

LoL I guess you got me there :-p You can find the logo in my Profile picture album :) Although I will say, thinking about changing it to a different phoenix, which i added to your logo for the fun of it. That's also in the album :)

[AstaSophi]

Hey - you wrote the defintion as I doofed-around and then responded.

Looks fine to me - and it is basic enough in it's undecorated line for to incorporate others' logos - such as Kitsu suggested.

MUCH better than the original logo with the already-in-use symbol. IMHO...

[Myrrden]

Actually, from my understanding of the law, as limited as it is, using the word JEDI is legal in the context shown, provided it is for non-commercial use and doesn't create competition with the owner of a related mark.

The following quote is taken from here (http://www.ladas.com/BULLETINS/1996/FederalDilution.html).

Federal Dilution Trademark Law in the United States

Contents
Effective Date
Summary & Guidelines
Dilution - Definition
Remedy - Injunctive Relief
First Amendment Concerns
Conclusions

Effectve date
The Federal Trademark Dilution Act of 1995, which protects famous marks from uses that dilute their distinctiveness, even in the absence of any likelihood of confusion or competition, became effective on January 16, 1996.

Summary & Guidelines
The new law sets forth guidelines to determine which marks are distinctive and famous and lists the following, non-exclusive factors:

(1) the degree of inherent or acquired distinctiveness of the mark;

(2) the duration and extent of use of the mark;

(3) the duration and extent of advertising and publicity;

(4) the geographical extent of the trading area in which the mark is used;

(5) the channels of trade;

(6) the degree of recognition of the mark in the trading areas and channels of trade used by the mark's owner and the person against whom the injunction is sought;

(7) the nature and extent of use of the same or similar marks by third parties; and

(8) whether the owner of the mark has a valid federal registration.

Notwithstanding this last factor, both registered and unregistered marks may be protected under this law.

Definitiion of Dilutiuon
The new act defines the term "dilution" as "the lessening of the capacity of a famous mark to identify and distinguish goods or services, regardless of the presence or absence of

(1) competition between the owner of the famous mark and other parties, or

(2) likelihood of confusion, mistake, or deception."

Courts have previously found that dilution can occur as a result of either "blurring" or "tarnishment". "Blurring" typically refers to the "whittling away" of distinctiveness caused by the unauthorized use of a mark on dissimilar products; while "tarnishment" involves an unauthorized use of a mark which links it to products that are of poor quality or which is portrayed in an unwholesome or unsavory context that is likely to reflect adversely upon the owner's product. The legislative history suggests that both of these concepts are encompassed within the new law. In addition, the legislative history cites, as examples of the uses which would fall within the new law, the mark DUPONT for shoes, BUICK for aspirin and KODAK for pianos.

Remedy - Injunctive Relief
Ordinarily, only injunctive relief is available under the new law. However, if the defendant willfully intended to trade on the owner's reputation or to cause dilution of the famous mark, the owner of that mark may also be entitled to other remedies available under the United States Trademark Act, including defendant's profits, damages, attorneys' fees, and destruction of the infringing goods. The availability of monetary relief is a striking departure from state dilution laws, which have typically provided only for injunctive relief. Interestingly, the new law also provides that the ownership of a valid federal registration is a complete bar to the assertion of a dilution claim under state law, thereby effectively pre-empting state dilution laws.

First Amendment Concerns
In response to legitimate First Amendment concerns, the new law expressly exempts certain uses of a famous mark, in particular:

(1) "fair use" of a mark in the context of comparative commercial advertising or promotion;

(2) non-commercial uses, such as parody, satire and editorial commentary; and

(3) all forms of news reporting and news commentary.

Conclusions
Although approximately 25 states have already enacted laws that prohibit trademark dilution, this new federal law is intended to provide uniform and nationwide protection for famous marks. Thus, the new law renders academic the unsettled question of whether a state dilution claim can support injunctive relief against use in another state in which there is no dilution statute. Nevertheless, what constitutes a "famous" mark is likely to generate controversy in the courts and in the Trademark Office and may well slow the trademark clearance and registration process, as parties seek to settle what constitutes a "famous" mark. In addition, courts have traditionally dismissed state dilution claims unless there is also a finding of infringement or unfair competition based upon a likelihood of confusion. It remains to be seen how courts and the Trademark Office will interpret this new federal law, which has potentially far-reaching applications.

I believe that as a group, specifically a philosophical/religious group, we would fall under the non-commercial use of the symbol. As the creator of the symbol would be the person who would legally hold the rights to it, and since JEDI is included within the design in a previous unused design within a design, it does not infringe upon or confuse any symbol or logo previously designed. Nor, does it dilute the use of another symbol for fictional purposes, as it is for a philosophical/religious group, who were inspired by the fiction, but do not copy it in its entirety or seek to profit from the use of the symbol through published works of fiction.

And, as the creator of the symbol, I'm allowing free use of it, provided no one tries to make a profit from its use. Though, should we decide on a final version, I would like to see it have potential in being made into real materials, like things sold on CafePress and into jewelry... again, provided no one profits financially from it. But, that's all stuff that can be worked out later.

[AdamGolfer]

If you put the Jedi name or any symbol from Star Wars on it and try to sell it you are going to have issues, even if you are selling it at cost, this is what I have been told when I contacted Lucas's people a couple years ago.

[AstaSophi]

The moment you accept money for anything using that logo - even if it's considered "non-profit" - you are gaining through that trademark.

"Jedi" used in the context that Jedi Realists do - it pretty obviously using "Jedi" in the Star Wars context.

I do know something about this. Trust me I do.

Lucas may not mind - but he has contacted other Jedi in the past who used "jedi" in selling items even with a small group.

I'm not sure that anvil should hang over a symbol?

But again - just my experience and trying to help with that experience.

(Remember the term "within context")...

[Myrrden]

There's actually some independent trademarks which just have "JEDI" listed, which aren't owned by Lucas. Just off the top of my head, there's a computer-style company and a Jeep fan club. Check out http://www.jedi.com

And, Lucas' people aren't a reliable source for what's legal with the use of the word, because they want to have complete control over it, even things they don't legally have control over. How many times have you seen the word Jedi pop up in places where it's being sold for a huge profit? Mad Magazine, Robot Chicken, Family Guy, etc. They're just done in a manner that's legal.

Let's face it, if those three can use references and logos anytime they want without violating the law, and they're making a profit from it, then a non-profit, non-commercial, using it for members and followers can't possibly be violating those same laws.

If legal action is taken, then the first thing that will happen is that they'll order a cease and desist. Easily done. Provided no profits have been made, then there's not an infringement on Lucas' profits, especially since it's not a replica of anything that Lucas sells or uses. So, that takes away the challenge of it being an illegal or bootleg knockoff or copy of his material.

Granted, I may be wrong, but from my research, it wouldn't appear to be so.

Here's another example, it's for the Jefferson Eastern Dane Interactive, a school... http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:Np0U9bFOUXzDWM:http://www.jedi.k12.wi.us/JEDI_logo031206OL.jpg

[AdamGolfer]

The problem is those have absolutely nothing to do with his creation! There is not one piece of resemblance and completely different areas. This is in a similar area and is using his creation as inspiration. The way it's used in magazines and shows is a different way. I also have some basic knowledge in this area, the best bet is contact a lawyer in this area and just run it by them. A couple of great sites out there too for questions like this.

[Charles]

I gotta agree with Adam on that, it's not a Parody so it's not protected by Parody laws either. In fact, the more we try to justify it as a religion, belief, path, whatever the more it becomes less and less a Parody legally I'd think.

[Myrrden]

Just to see what type of liability there might be, I'm going to ask a few attorneys to see what they think. I'd ask my own attorney, but he always tells me to just go ahead and do stuff, then deal with it later on if someone complains. So, for now, I'll just ask a few and see what their opinions are.

Also, legally, we could be called "Journeys through Ethics, Dreaming and Intentions" which would be shortened as J.E.D.I.

Here's that option... http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs153.snc3/18059_1256066195884_1056452778_30854740_6068826_n. jpg

[Brandel Valico]

Okay first let me clarify I SUCK at Image editing. So you are going to have to use your imagination to get to what I am talking about here.

What I'm envisioning is an open book with a sunburst ray pattern from the bottom extending upward. That is the total symbol Leaving space above it for individual symbols personal or decided upon by small groups or individuals. The example I give would probably be close to what I would do. The ray and lightsaber would be etched into the metal or perhaps even cut through forming a simplified image Perhaps like this

(]HHHHHHH[

http://home.comcast.net/~BrandelValico/Images/basicsymbol.jpg

Not sure how easy it will be for everyone to get the idea but I'm talking a very very simple clean concept. The book as the base to symbolize Knowledge. The rising sun to show the search for light and enlightenment we are all seeking. The rest is personal goals. If any that the groups or individuals add. Picture simple etches of state Outlines for State groups or for Guardians the Lightsaber hilt. For Scholars perhaps an all seeing eye.

I hope everyone gets the basic idea. I am sorry that I'm not an image guy. I'll try and work up a better image. But the idea popped in and this is the quick and dirty concept guide I did with the 15 or so minutes I had.

For those better artists who may like the idea feel free to work something up if you like.

[RyuJin]

i had a similar idea a while back except i had the burst behind the book highlighting it with the lightsaber beneath...it then covers the concepts of knowledge, wisdom, and strength...

[Brandel Valico]

What I'm tossing around is a simple medallion with the book and sunburst being the actual symbol. It's simple but descriptive enough Perhaps incorporating a center beam into a vague very vague lightsaber type concept. Simple clean easy to reproduce and not so star wars'ish that it upsets anyone.

[Myrrden]

The only problem I see with it is the use of the lightsaber. A lot of people simply don't want to use anything fictional that connects them with just being fans.

I'm headed to the store, but tonight I'll see if I can come up with something based on what you put up there.

[Brandel Valico]

A little more like what I'm thinking in my head. Again I am sorry for the roughness of this image. http://home.comcast.net/~BrandelValico/Images/basicsymbol2.jpg
The Squares would be more of a book type etching or cutout design. With the sunburst expanding out and the "saber" up the middle. The upside of this is while it's easy to denote it as such. It's also easy to just see it as for example the inner light of the individual reaching up through the Knowledge and Enlightenment we all seek toward the path they seek.

[Brandel Valico]

Okay this is a bit closer to what I had envisioned. What it would be is a simple disk of metal or wood (I would use metal myself) It's cut clean through so that whatever is underneath or behind it would show through. Would also cast a nifty shadow with the sun shinning through at the right angle or any light source for that matter. Again the book Shows the quest for Knowledge and Wisdom the Sunburst shows the quest for enlightenment. The center beam is a lightsaber like pillar for those who like that symbol. But not so lightsaber'ish that it would instantly evoke that feel for those who don't. For them it would represent their own inner light shinning up and through the others as pointing the way to the path they follow. (It could be seen as the path stretching off into the distance for example)

http://home.comcast.net/~BrandelValico/Images/basicsymbol3.jpg

It's still a fairly rough image. But it fills the criteria for a good symbol. It's descriptive of the group, It's simple to reproduce, Easily scaled, and works in both the positive and negative reliefs (Embossed on paper for example) .

Any thoughts both positive and negative feedback is welcome.

To be honest Myrrden I'd be really interested to see what it would look like at the center of your current concept. With that blazing sun disk showing through the lines cut out. Or In the negative with the disk and the lines sort of etched into the blazing sun disk.

[AstaSophi]

It is interesting how alike these to images are - really.

There is a square and a circle - and if the book and Path/Saber and "rays" were added - this could be a really interesting logo. (Personally - I'd like to see the "path/saber" a little thicker at the bottom but that's me - saber is going to turn a lot of people off.)

But the saber/path idea is a really good compromise!

I like the design of the first one - but the symbolism of the 2nd. Both are quite clever - I like it!:sHa_thumb:

[Myrrden]

Brandel, I didn't get a chance to work on anything today, but maybe in the morning I can get some time to see if I can do something up. I like the concept that you've got there though, especially with that last image.

Question... what color / type of metal do you think that should be?

[Brandel Valico]

Not really sure to be honest. I'm kind of just trying to keep it as plan and clean as I can. What I was rolling around in my head is simply a steel disk or platinum maybe. With the lines cut all the way through allowing the light to shine through them. Mind you the images should be more balanced and even, then my attempt is. I'm sure it could be made to look a lot better then I'm doing. The book still doesn't really look like a book for example. But it's getting there.

Asta as you and others have said. Our similarities are there if we look for them. Instead of focusing on the differences.

[RyuJin]

pewter would be a good metal to use as it's frequently used for cost effective jewelery and would fall in line with the minimalist aspect of jedi

[Kitsu Tails]

To be honest brandel...and I don't mean to be rude in any way...To you, or the community I'm about to mention... but....

That symbol looks way to christian-y to me. The book reminds me of the bible, and the sun thing is exactly something a side branch christian group would use....IMHO

[Brandel Valico]

Nothing rude in sharing your thoughts Kitsu. Thats what the thread is about. I could see a Christian group using them. I could also see a Muslim and or Buddhist group using them. Heck the standard Sholin hand gesture is a book and fist reference. The Lightsaber image itself could be seen as a Christian symbol. Many have all ready made that connection. To the flaming swords carried by the Angel guarding Eden. With the Jedi also showing that link. Of being Guardians of the Tree of Knowledge and Blah Blah Blah.... People draw references to things all the time. I've heard the Phoenix for example to be a reference to Jesus and his coming back from the dead.

In the end sadly someone will always be able to see something others don't in any symbol we decide or create.

Still I'm not trying to shoot holes in your statement. Your definatly right. I could easily see a Christian group using this sort of symbol set. Though their book would be closed due to their Quest for Knowledge being set. Would probably say Bible on it also. While this ones open to show we are still open to adding to what we consider our base.

Thanks for a different view hadn't considered the Christian view of it. If we have any Christians out there who would be willing to chime in. Would a symbol like this make you instantly think Christian Group?

[jdmcowan]

I would never link this, in my mind, to Christianity - though I can see how some might. There are only two symbols which I see as broad symbols of christianity - the cross and the ichthus. However, Christians do sometimes like to use images of the sun and the Bible, so I could see how someone might think this looked vaguely Christian.

And I disagree that Christians would use a closed Bible "due to their Quest for Knowledge being set." I think most Christians would say that they are constantly learning from the bible and constantly seeking new understanding - especially reformed Christians. I think the reason a closed bible is sometimes used is to show that it's the Bible and not some other book. But for my own beliefs, a closed Bible is just another book on the shelf and an open Bible is a chance to receive God's teachings.

Jeremy

[RyuJin]

ummm what's an ichthus?....never heard that word before

[jdmcowan]

ummm what's an ichthus?....never heard that word before

It's the fish symbol made of of two intersecting arcs. Surely you've seen it on the back of a car somewhere. I've also seen a hilarious counter-symbol of an ichthus with legs eating a regular ichthus.

When early Christians were being persecuted, they came up with a symbol they could use which was less obvious than the cross. The Greek phrase, "Iesus Christos, Theou Uios, Soter," means, "Jesus Christ, God's Son, the Saviour," and the first letter of each word spells ichthus, the Greek word for fish, so that was chosen as the symbol. In modern times it is also sometimes shown with the Greek letters inside of it.

Jeremy

[Myrrden]

http://www.thetelluridebroker.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/icthus-fish.gif

[RyuJin]

lol i've always called it the goofy little fish thingy...i've seen them with the name jesus in them...also seen the darwin one(with legs) eating the other...well at least i know the correct name for it, thanks....although i still will most likely call it the goofy little fish thingy... :D

[Zaron]

wow you guys are creative :) keep this up it's quite fun to watch! :)

[Brandel Valico]

An excellent point concerning the Bible and being open or closed JD. Seems I need to remember to not let myself slip into closing my own mind to such things. I appreciate your pointing it out. As well as the rest of your thoughts on the symbols being tossed around.

[Myrrden]

Brandel, I didn't have much time to work on it, but this is the first draft that I came up with. What do you think? Suggestions? Ideas?

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs133.snc3/18059_1257138462690_1056452778_30857539_801206_n.j pg

[Moonshadow]

The black sunburst actually looks kind of dark and intimidating. Can you adjust the color a bit to blend a bit more with the background? I think it would also look better if the middle beam were the longest and the others were a bit shorter.

I also still like your idea of writing out JEDI as an acronym and would be interested in seeing what the symbol would look like with that over it. At least it would leave no question what the symbol meant. :p

--Moonshadow

[Myrrden]

I can shorten the other beams fairly easily.

What color would you suggest?

[Moonshadow]

Maybe you could do it as a black outline rather than solid black, like the book. No idea how that would look, though.

--Moonshadow

[Myrrden]

Here's a couple for you to check out...

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs153.snc3/18059_1257168703446_1056452778_30857638_1535471_n. jpg http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs153.snc3/18059_1257169583468_1056452778_30857639_3383480_n. jpg

[Brandel Valico]

It looks pretty neat. Not sure how easy it would be to see it in the negative for embossing or creating a simplified variation. But it does look pretty cool I really like the last two. Actually I guess it wouldn't be that hard to make it outline only and then it would work well in the negative. I personally wouldn't argue against it being a symbol for the Jedi. It works to still give that Jedi type feel. While not being to Star Wars'ish. Hopefully others will feel the same and you'll have given everyone the elusive symbol everyone can accept as one they all like.

[Myrrden]

Actually, it wouldn't take me too long to simplify it like I did the version posted earlier, just as simple to make it a plain outline. If this is the version that most people like, then I'd have to actually redo it and make it larger, that way it condenses down better. But, that's not too hard, it just takes some time.

[Kitsu Tails]

I still think it looks Christian with the name Jedi plastered on it >_< So, if there was a vote on it, mine would be no.

[Myrrden]

Oddly enough, I don't see it as being Christian. If I did, I'd be opposed to it. Heck, might not have bothered to draw it out using Brandel's ideas. Of course, that could be because I'm surrounded by about ten thousand books, so an open book to me is just something laying here on the floor or desk, not the Bible.

[Angelus]

I would prefer the design without the name Jedi on it. The thing about symbols is that they say who/what they are without having to spell it out. It would also eliminate the legal concerns regarding use of that name. Additionally, I am one for simplicity; the more that is added to a picture eventually makes it too busy and everything in it starts to loose meaning.

I understand that we want people to know that this symbol is a representation of the Jedi order. However,the best way that will be achieved is through time and exposure. The cross or ichthys (fish) was not widely associated with Christianity until later. The same can be said about the Star of David for the Jews or the Star and Crescent for the Muslims.

[Myrrden]

I know there's a few pages here to try and sort through, but if everyone could go to http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=photos&gid=256627558741 and look at the variety of pics posted there, and let the rest of us know which version you like, that'd be a great help.

[Myrrden]

Kitsu, I put together something using your logo...

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs133.snc3/18059_1256085796374_1056452778_30854817_4495320_n. jpg

[Myrrden]

Ok, on the legal advice of an attorney, anything using Jedi, JEDI, etc. should not be used on anything... period. Not in name,not in print, not on products, not on freebies, etc. Here's some of his comments on it:

I think you must know this is trademark infringement, but it is more. It is willful trademark infringement for which punitive damages would likely prevail. Obi-Wan says the philosophical group will be forced to stop because the Force is not with them and they do not have enough money to fight Lucasfilm Entertainment Company, Ltd of San Francisco, CA and would lose, and lose badly, if they tried. Currently there appear to be 9 US trademark or service mark applications or registrations which include the term JEDI, the original one being JEDI KNIGHT Reg. No. 1134730 which claims use since 1977-07-18. Eight are owned by Lucasfilm. The ninth is an application for JEDI NEMESIS as a band's name, and it is under rejection for being too similar to one of the 8 JEDI marks of Lucasfilm. So, there is no registered trademark including the term JEDI owned by anyone other than Lucasfilm for any product or service whatsoever. Many have tried to overcome the JEDI Force of Lucasfilm, all have failed because the JEDI Force is with Yoda, Luke and Lucasfilm. Your group is a Death Star on this, doomed to explode. Even Darth Vader wouldn't try what your group tried, and Darth was a Jedi Knight. Change or prepare to meet the full fury of the Force for this transgression upon one of the most famous terms in all history. Hell hath no fury like a JEDI scorned.

So, guess that really does settle that issue.

[Myrrden]

You're right, which is why we're looking for something that at least the majority of us can agree to use, even if we individually change the definitions for ourselves or our group. No matter what, we're all always going to disagree on something, but sometimes we need to agree on something. And, I'm not looking for a symbol that everyone must accept or they're not Jedi. I'm looking for something that can start to be used and adapted for the Jedi, that way as you progress around, you tend to see it a little more often, and you know when you see it, "That's a Jedi."

[Setanaoko]

Well, if anyone needs another term that they want to use- I won't sue you for using the term "Force Realist" :P

[Cu Glas]

I like this symbol, but I can see problems coming from copyright should it ever be adopted en-masse.
I've always thought the Republic's symbol looks like a phoenix, rising from the flames...
I think the main problem comes from what we already view as accepted symbols. Those of a large number of religions have been based upon the main religious belief (The Christian crucifix being a prime example).
Is it possible to represent the Force in a symbol?

[Kitsu Tails]

I've always thought the Republic's symbol looks like a phoenix, rising from the flames...

I can kinda see that. The 'Jedi' may not be closely represented as a phoenix. But the Community I think does quite often.... Which was the purpose of Just Jedi's logo. One community will rise and fall, and another will inevitably rise out of the ashes until it too will burn out...thus repeating the process. As it has for almost 10 years since the online Jedi started. The "Republic" Followed this same process


Is it possible to represent the Force in a symbol?Doubt it....closest I could come up with was a crystal of sorts.

Myrrden - Thanks for the logo edits ^_^ Sadly I don't think it worked out well with the frame... aw well. It was just for curiosity sake anyways :)

[Cu Glas]

I've done a little digging...

If we want inspiration from the Star Wars Universe how about this?:
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/9/9b/Rhen_Var_ruins_symbol.jpg

This is from a wall in the ruins at Rhen Var.

Rhen Var was a planet situated near the Tion Cluster in the Outer Rim Territories and one of the former Thanium Worlds. It was the first planet in the Tobali system. Throughout the history of the Galactic Republic, Rhen Var was covered in ice, rendering it almost uninhabitable. Remains of an ancient civilization and old Jedi artifacts were found beneath the ice on the planet, remnants of a former population.

[Myrrden]

I agree. We've continued to evolve in the 13 years that I've been online. One of the first projects that I helped work on in 1997 was to come up with a "Jedi Handbook" that had people from a wide array of backgrounds all contributing their own views in their area of expertise. I'm not sure what happened to that group, but it was ambitious back then. From there, things seem to have worked like a tree... it started off as a couple of major websites, which then branched off into smaller ones, some died off, others continued to branch, etc.